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Old 20.08.2015, 13:04
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There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Very interesting article in Le Temps today, about the unemployment situation in Neuchâtel Canton, and what our brilliant Chancellor, Jean-Nat Karakash if planning to do about it.

Neuchâtel has increased its job pool by 10% since 2009, and yet the unemployment situation has only gone down by 2% and Socail Help up to 7%: Lots of analysis has been done by Jean-Nat- and his team have come up with some interesting findings.

First, there are 3 main type of frontaliers:

- those who live in nearby France and are from the area
- those who live in nearby France but come form far away regions of France and have moved here for the Swiss jobs- and those who are from all over the world and have done the same
- and those who live in nearby Cantons but commute to work into Neuchâtel.

The first 2 categories pay tax in France, but 4.5% is paid back to Neuchâtel and the Communes. The last is actually the most damaging to the NE economy, has taxes are paid in the Canton where they live, and nothing comes back to NE.

About 50% of frontaliers belong to cat 1 and 2, and 50% to cat 3.

But Jean-Nat points out clearly that it is no good pointing the finger at frontaliers- as the 5.2% un-employed are generally totally unsuited for the jobs that become available as they do not have the necessary qualifications and/or experience. He is planning to completely remodel the 'unemployment integration' education system- to ensure as many as possible can be effectively trained to take up some of those jobs. He is an amazing young man, and I take my hat off to him. Bonne chance.
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Old 20.08.2015, 13:20
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

So there is no point in pointing the finger at the frontaliers, but it is their fault that socail help and unemployment is so high?

Neuchatel just has to deal with it in other ways?

Also what about the ones that live in Neuchatel but work in a different canton? Did Jean-Nat offset the tax they bring vs the category 3 'frontarlier'?
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Old 20.08.2015, 14:21
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Maybe if NE didn't tax people to buggery they might be more willing to live there and pay their taxes there in the first place.
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Old 20.08.2015, 15:11
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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The first 2 categories pay tax in France, but 4.5% is paid back to Neuchâtel and the Communes.
In Ticino the Italians pay tax in Ticino, and Ticino gives 38.8% to Italy, so tax wise they are much better off, but now they want to change that to make it less of a tax advantage.

Tom
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Old 20.08.2015, 23:31
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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So there is no point in pointing the finger at the frontaliers, but it is their fault that socail help and unemployment is so high?

Neuchatel just has to deal with it in other ways?

Also what about the ones that live in Neuchatel but work in a different canton? Did Jean-Nat offset the tax they bring vs the category 3 'frontarlier'?
It would be nice if you actually read my post. Where on earth did I say that frontaliers are responsible for high social help and unemployment? I said cleary that the unemployed were generally not qualified or experienced int he fields required for new jobs. That is the local unemployed and on social help, cleary.

And secondly this is just what I said, that Neuchâtel had to deal with this in other ways- and that this is what Karakash in planning to do- Just what I said. And of course he/they are making it much more attrractive for new businesses to come and settle here- hence all the new jobs created in last few years. Exactly- Thanks for listening.
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Old 20.08.2015, 23:41
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

But could we say that there are now 8% more frontaliers now?

I read in the paper today that Swatch is moving an assembly plant for watches from Tessin to Biel-Bienne which is near to Neuchâtel. So do we expect even more frontaliers or will Swatch train some of the unemployed people?
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Old 21.08.2015, 00:07
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

No idea Sbrinz. The plan though is for the Canton re-insertion services to get unemployed people training so they can take up as many of the jobs becoming available when new businesses come here. Biel/Bienne as you well know is in BE, nor NE.

It makes sense that there is more people on social help in areas where rents are very low. Here there is a 3 room appartment for 300, all in, a 5.5 for 1000 and a 9 room, 2 bath, garden (animals accepted) and huge rooms- for under 2000. In La Chaux-de-Fonds rents are not much higher.
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Old 21.08.2015, 00:56
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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It would be nice if you actually read my post. Where on earth did I say that frontaliers are responsible for high social help and unemployment? I said cleary that the unemployed were generally not qualified or experienced int he fields required for new jobs. That is the local unemployed and on social help, cleary.

And secondly this is just what I said, that Neuchâtel had to deal with this in other ways- and that this is what Karakash in planning to do- Just what I said. And of course he/they are making it much more attrractive for new businesses to come and settle here- hence all the new jobs created in last few years. Exactly- Thanks for listening.
So if they have nothing to do with it wby mention them in a post about social help and unemployment?
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It makes sense that there is more people on social help in areas where rents are very low. Here there is a 3 room appartment for 300, all in, a 5.5 for 1000 and a 9 room, 2 bath, garden (animals accepted) and huge rooms- for under 2000. In La Chaux-de-Fonds rents are not much higher.
You're so out of touch. Yes they are
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Old 21.08.2015, 00:58
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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No idea Sbrinz. The plan though is for the Canton re-insertion services to get unemployed people training so they can take up as many of the jobs becoming available when new businesses come here. Biel/Bienne as you well know is in BE, nor NE.

It makes sense that there is more people on social help in areas where rents are very low. Here there is a 3 room appartment for 300, all in, a 5.5 for 1000 and a 9 room, 2 bath, garden (animals accepted) and huge rooms- for under 2000. In La Chaux-de-Fonds rents are not much higher.
160 new jobs arriving, not far from Neuchâtel. Why did they go to Biel?

http://www.derbund.ch/wirtschaft/unt...story/13068315
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Old 21.08.2015, 01:02
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Because the combination of the two is a secific problem NE has got at the moment- and which needs addressing, and Karakash is trying to address both at the same time- because the two issues are covered by the Le Temps article today.

There is a lot of resentment of frontaliers here by a significant % of the population against frontaliers, and Karakash is clearly stating that frontaliers are not responsible for the unemployment- to a large extent, and that Swiss out of canton 'frontaliers' are actually more 'damaging'- basically that the issues are complex and need new ways to tackle them. Social help is closey linked to un-employment- as when unemployed get to the end of their entitlement, or are not elgible, they are 'picked up' by the social system- so the link is clear.
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Old 21.08.2015, 01:17
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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Because the combination of the two is a secific problem NE has got at the moment- and which needs addressing, and Karakash is trying to address both at the same time- because the two issues are covered by the Le Temps article today.

There is a lot of resentment of frontaliers here by a significant % of the population against frontaliers, and Karakash is clearly stating that frontaliers are not responsible for the unemployment- to a large extent, and that Swiss out of canton 'frontaliers' are actually more 'damaging'- basically that the issues are complex and need new ways to tackle them. Social help is closey linked to un-employment- as when unemployed get to the end of their entitlement, or are not elgible, they are 'picked up' by the social system- so the link is clear.
So again have the taxes brought in by people living in neuchatel but working outside of neuchatel been taken in account when judging if your category 3 are really tbat harmful?
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Old 21.08.2015, 11:08
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Well, a few posts above have put the finger on it- very few people do it that way round, for obvious reasons- as taxes are higher here. If you live in, say, Marin in the East of the Canton, or Gorgier in the West, rents are as high as beyond the Cantonal border, so might as well live the other side. And if you live where I live, or in Le Locle/La Chaux-de-Fonds- where high taxes are really offset and more by much lower rents, commuting to Biel or Lausanne- does not make sense either.

So yes, 50% of the frontaliers are not from nearby France, but from border Cantons where taxes are lower. And yes, of course this is being addressed as part of this 'package' of measures. Taxes for businesses have already been made much more competitie, hence the 10% new jobs created since 2009 by attracting new businesses.

This thread tries, and obviously not quite getting to you somehow-to illustrate that Karakash is very aware that the issues are very complex indeed, that so many factors are linked, and that pointing the finger at frontaliers from nearby France is pretty counterproductive. And that the unemployed need to be supported and trained to be able to fill some of the new jobs created (thinking about some I know around here- no amount of training or support will help them, tragically).

DB, yes taxes are high in Neuch- but outside Neuch towm- massively offset by low rents, space and excellent amenities and social support for families. Here for instance, women who want to work are really well supported by the system, and parents only pay for a 1/4 of childcare cost- in other towns is pro-rata to salary, etc. And if you can get a 9 room appartment, with 2 bathrooms, huge kitchen, large attic and cellar, large garden perfect for several children and animals, next to a good school, etc... for under 2000- then higher taxes are clearly offset.
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Old 21.08.2015, 11:28
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Sbrinz- Swatch already have a well established base in Biel, so it makes sense for them to go there. 8700 new jobs were created in last few years in Nechâtel too- Cartier has opened a huge place near us, for instance- and yes, partly because it is much nearer to the border than Biel, where they can get well qualified staff at the lowest prices. Very difficult to commute from Pontarlier or Morteau to Biel.
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Old 21.08.2015, 12:31
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Swatch needed a construction site for watch wrists NOW and did not find anything suitable near to the existing site in Ticino and as a company with a good location recently went out of business east of Biel they took it


Swatch of course is interested to strengthen the Biel presence aound their HQ -- where they anyway hAVE some subsidiaries






The Swatch Group AG

Seevorstadt 6
Postfach
2501 Biel
Telefon: +41 32 343 68 11
Fax: +41 32 343 69 11
www.swatchgroup.com




Bear in mind that Nick Hayek grew up in Zürich (his Dad in Beirut) and studied in St Gallen

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Old 21.08.2015, 13:03
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Just saying it is nice to have a Socialist Chancellor with high qualifications in Economics- and is trying to look at all the factors involved and act accordingly. As usual, I find myself stuck between people who want to 'blame' in a simple way- either 'frontaliers are responsible for all ills' and the other side 'frontaliers have nothing to do whatsoever in the % of unemployment' or even 'the un-employed all all lazy lay-abouts who just want to sponge on the hard working people, etc, etc. A refreshing change.

And no, I am not a member of the Socialist party- au contraire, I am an elected member of a center right party, much to DB's surprise, I am sure
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Old 21.08.2015, 13:06
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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Well, a few posts above have put the finger on it- very few people do it that way round, for obvious reasons- as taxes are higher here. If you live in, say, Marin in the East of the Canton, or Gorgier in the West, rents are as high as beyond the Cantonal border, so might as well live the other side. And if you live where I live, or in Le Locle/La Chaux-de-Fonds- where high taxes are really offset and more by much lower rents, commuting to Biel or Lausanne- does not make sense either.

So yes, 50% of the frontaliers are not from nearby France, but from border Cantons where taxes are lower. And yes, of course this is being addressed as part of this 'package' of measures. Taxes for businesses have already been made much more competitie, hence the 10% new jobs created since 2009 by attracting new businesses.

This thread tries, and obviously not quite getting to you somehow-to illustrate that Karakash is very aware that the issues are very complex indeed, that so many factors are linked, and that pointing the finger at frontaliers from nearby France is pretty counterproductive. And that the unemployed need to be supported and trained to be able to fill some of the new jobs created (thinking about some I know around here- no amount of training or support will help them, tragically).

DB, yes taxes are high in Neuch- but outside Neuch towm- massively offset by low rents, space and excellent amenities and social support for families. Here for instance, women who want to work are really well supported by the system, and parents only pay for a 1/4 of childcare cost- in other towns is pro-rata to salary, etc. And if you can get a 9 room appartment, with 2 bathrooms, huge kitchen, large attic and cellar, large garden perfect for several children and animals, next to a good school, etc... for under 2000- then higher taxes are clearly offset.
So he hasn't or you don't know if he has offset that? I mean when I talked to you in the past you told me that a lot of people live near where you are and commute to Bern for work due to the excellent childcare and small class sizes in your area.

If the taxes raised from people living in Neuchatel but working outside of Neuchatel are higher than the taxes of people working in Neuchatel but living outside then it isn't an issue.

I'm sure your super chancellor has done the sums, and if you posted an article rather than giving your own summary maybe we could check for ourselves?
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Old 21.08.2015, 13:17
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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So he hasn't or you don't know if he has offset that?
Obviously yes he did that since he found out that the 3rd category of frontaliers are the "problem". What is not clear porsch?

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I mean when I talked to you in the past you told me that a lot of people live near where you are and commute to Bern for work due to the excellent childcare and small class sizes in your area.
Odile's "lot of people" might be actually a few people when summed up at cantonal level. Anecdote.
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Old 21.08.2015, 13:33
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

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Obviously yes he did that since he found out that the 3rd category of frontaliers are the "problem". What is not clear porsch?



Odile's "lot of people" might be actually a few people when summed up at cantonal level. Anecdote.
Are you Odile's PA or can she answer herself since she's the one summarising the article and she's the one who said people live near her and commute to Bern.

If it was clear then I wouldn't be asking now would I?
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Old 21.08.2015, 13:52
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Well I did partly address this at 10.08, post 12:

Well, a few posts above have put the finger on it- very few people do it that way round, for obvious reasons- as taxes are higher here. If you live in, say, Marin in the East of the Canton, or Gorgier in the West, rents are as high as beyond the Cantonal border, so might as well live the other side. And if you live where I live, or in Le Locle/La Chaux-de-Fonds- where high taxes are really offset and more by much lower rents, commuting to Biel or Lausanne- does not make sense either.

However- yes, where I live, there are quite a few (not sure I ever used 'a lot') who have decided to come and live here, despite working in Geneva or Bern- because they could buy a wonderful large family home for under 500.000 or rent a massive flat with a garden suitable for lots of children and animals for a fraction of what they would be elsewhere, be surrounded by great countryside for all year round sport, no fog and have good schools and small classes for their kids, etc, etc. But overall as a % of the Canton in general, it is a tiny number- even if it is fairly significant here. One guy from Geneva keeps a tiny studio for himself for when he has meetings or has to work late- his family lives here and he comes for long week-ends. As far as tax % for the Canton as a whole, it is insignificant compared to t'other way round.

Here is the first part of the article, I am sure you can Google the rest if you wish:

Texte


neuchâtel lundi 10 mars 2014
Jean-Nat Karakash, redresseur social

Serge Jubin
Jean-Nat Karakash. (veroniquebotteron.com)

Le ministre socialiste de 34 ans entend relever le défi de réduire de moitié la progression inquiétante du coût de l’aide sociale dans son canton. En investissant dans la réinsertion
Demandez à cet ingénieur EPFL en informatique de 34 ans, politicien professionnel depuis dix ans, comment il vit sa première année de conseiller d’Etat neuchâtelois, il vous renvoie un grand éclat de rire. Un rire sonore en guise de préambule à bien des réponses. Puis vient un argumentaire construit, solide, mêlant pragmatisme et vision stratégique.
Il a beau être le benjamin du gouvernement, le socialiste Jean-Nat Karakash, 35 ans en mai prochain, est de la trempe des grands, «brillant et intelligent», entend-on à son sujet. Elu en mai 2013, juste derrière le «sortant» Laurent Kurth, le ressortissant de Val-de-Travers a d’emblée imprimé sa patte au département sur mesure qui lui a été confié, l’Economie et l’action sociale. Canton connaissant une dynamique économique importante, Neuchâtel se distingue paradoxalement aussi par ses taux record de chômage et d’aide sociale. Près de 7% des Neuchâtelois ont recours aux prestations publiques et le phénomène progresse de 10% par an. Le nombre de bénéficiaires des prestations sociales a doublé depuis 2007, de 6000 à 12 000 personnes.
Alors, avec le Conseil d’Etat à majorité de gauche, le socialiste Jean-Nat Karakash a décidé de raboter dans les prestations servies. De 15% pour les adultes de moins de 35 ans sans charge de famille; et des suppléments ont aussi été supprimés aux familles. La mesure entre en vigueur ce mois.
Le sourire initial passé, Jean-Nat Karakash rétorque avec fermeté et pédagogie. «La première décision prise a consisté à consacrer des moyens supplémentaires à l’intégration professionnelle et à favoriser la reconnaissance du travail. Le revenu disponible d’un travailleur doit être supérieur à celui d’une personne à l’aide sociale. Pour lutter contre les effets de seuil, nous avons augmenté les subsides à l’assurance maladie. Nous avons donc commencé par injecter des moyens. Malheureusement, la situation financière neuchâteloise étant ce qu’elle est, couplée à l’augmentation du nombre de bénéficiaires de l’aide sociale, nous avons été contraints de trouver des ressources. Les rentrées supplémentaires liées à la réforme de l’impôt des personnes morales en sont une, mais nous avons également été amenés à revoir certaines prestations.» La démonstration est convaincante.
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Old 21.08.2015, 14:26
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Re: There are frontaliers and ... frontaliers...

Grow up "porsch"! Or economisto, or treesarehalal or....

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Well I did partly address this at 10.08, post 12:

Well, a few posts above have put the finger on it- very few people do it that way round, for obvious reasons- as taxes are higher here. .
Yes you did that and those who are not bored and blood thirsty have read and understood. I don't know why you bother replying to him, it's useless.

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