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  #21  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:02
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

St Croix is quite a different story actually- and its industry which collapsed in the 70s, was much more based on musical boxes, record players and cameras, including the famous BOLEX. St Croix is vey close to the border via Les Fourgs and Pontarlier, and has a huge number of frontaliers coming in to work every day- and is owed a very large sum of money!

The watch making industry was much more important in my Valley- where about about a dozen watch making and parts manufacturers closed in the 70s- as well as a massive knitting machine factory, the best in the world for over a Century- as they didn't see the Japanese arriving with new technology. It was a tragedy for the area- I grew up here in the 50s and 60s- when all those industries were booming, watch makers, but also hands, ébauches, and all sort of parts, and also several engineering firms, and as said, a massive knitting machine factory exporting all over the world.

But some of the young watch-makers picked themselves up, and decided, very wisely and cleverly, that the only way to bring back watch-making was to invest in very high quality top of the range watches. They took a huge risk- but it paid off- with the highest quality label attached. One of those was the son of an Italian immigrant- I take my hat off to him for all he has achieved. We even have a top quality Finnish watch-maker here, producing a very small number of amazing watches a year, with a small team, in his wonderful 1900 'master's house'- atrracted by the quality label.And the authorities also realised it was paramount to diversify and have been quite succesful so far, but still have a way to go.

Yacek. it is tough for you and I am sorry. But can you really talk about a 'mindset' in a negative way. Vaud on its own is owed over one million CHF by France for frontaliers. That is not peanuts. And each unemployed person and their family cost the community thousands too- as well as affects a whole range of cultural and social factors too. As hard as it is on you, can you not imagine why it makes sense to employ local people first, and that this is not anti frontaliers or foreign workers? Bonne chance.


Last edited by Odile; 13.10.2015 at 20:50.
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  #22  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:40
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

So the bottom line is: federal government feckd up their own citizens by relesing the CHF, right?
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  #23  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:41
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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So the bottom line is: federal government feckd up their own citizens by relesing the CHF, right?
No they fecked up by introducing the peg in the first place.
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Old 13.10.2015, 20:42
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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No they fecked up by introducing the peg in the first place.
Why so?

Edit: Well ok I read some info...Either way SNB is there to blame...
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  #25  
Old 13.10.2015, 20:57
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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Why so?

Edit: Well ok I read some info...Either way SNB is there to blame...
Market manipulation always ends in tears, they could not carry on forever & ever.
You can only temporally 'buck' the market. In this case the game lasted 3 years.
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  #26  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:14
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

if the CHF went down again I could spend more money in the local economy

Why isn't france paying up?
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Old 13.10.2015, 21:33
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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if the CHF went down again I could spend more money in the local economy

Why isn't france paying up?
Probably because it's 'optional', no other country in the world passes on tax revenue to it's local (richer) neighbours. It's quite a bizarre concept TBH.
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  #28  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:34
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

You ask them

as our pensions are in £ only, same applies here
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  #29  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:35
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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Probably because it's 'optional', no other country in the world passes on tax revenue to it's local (richer) neighbours. It's quite a bizarre concept TBH.


Ohhhh it's optional? so yeah doubt that will happen

If they could lower the CHF rate to dec rates, I would be happy to spend more
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  #30  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:37
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

You ask them

as our pensions are in £ only, same applies here

And no it is NOT optional as it is a signed treaty, in exchange for cutting down their unemployment drastically, and as they are taxing the high salaries paid here, and also benefiting from the huge increase frontaliers have had recently, which is being reflected in a housing boom, new houses, renovations, expensive cars, lots of money spent eating out and in the shops, etc. What seems strange is to allow workers to work here in their thousands, and NOT directly TAX them here (as is the case in Geneva).
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  #31  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:43
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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You ask them

as our pensions are in £ only, same applies here

And no it is NOT optional as it is a signed treaty, in exchange for cutting down their unemployment drastically, and as they are taxing the high salaries paid here, and also benefiting from the huge increase frontaliers have had recently, which is being reflected in a housing boom, new houses, renovations, expensive cars, lots of money spent eating out and in the shops, etc. What seems strange is to allow workers to work here in their thousands, and NOT directly TAX them here (as is the case in Geneva).
It's fairly unusual to tax people who live in a different country & do not benefit in anyway from the services those taxes pay for. Geneva is an exception rather than the rule, so the higher paid negotiator in GE was not wearing the teflon shoes that the guy from your canton wore
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  #32  
Old 13.10.2015, 21:51
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

which is why the signed treaty if for 4.3% only- and in April 1983- not just 'my' Canton, but all the other frontaliers cantons, Jura and Vaud are owned huge sums.

En 2013, la somme totale pour les huit cantons s'élevait à 276 millions. Outre Vaud et Jura, sont concernés Bâle-Ville, Bâle-Campagne, Neuchâtel, Berne, Valais et Soleure.

so also BaselStadt and Kanton, Bern, Valais and Solothurn.

The alternative is of course to begin to tax those workers fully in Switzerland, as Geneva does- or as said above, systematically get rid of frontaliers as soon as the opportunity arises- and the unemployed here are trained up to take the jobs. They won't be able to object then, will they.

Last edited by Odile; 13.10.2015 at 22:05.
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  #33  
Old 13.10.2015, 22:16
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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which is why the signed treaty if for 4.3% only- and in April 1983- not just 'my' Canton, but all the other frontaliers cantons, Jura and Vaud are owned huge sums.

En 2013, la somme totale pour les huit cantons s'élevait à 276 millions. Outre Vaud et Jura, sont concernés Bâle-Ville, Bâle-Campagne, Neuchâtel, Berne, Valais et Soleure.

so also BaselStadt and Kanton, Bern, Valais and Solothurn.

The alternative is of course to begin to tax those workers fully in Switzerland, as Geneva does- or as said above, systematically get rid of frontaliers as soon as the opportunity arises- and the unemployed here are trained up to take the jobs. They won't be able to object then, will they.
The Swiss would love to do that, however the availability of frontiers allows them to pay substantially lower wages than would otherwise be the case. As the CHF has strengthened, many companies could cut salaries across the board by 10%/20%/30%/40% . The French would work for 30% less as it's still twice a French salary. The local Swiss would all be on Chomage as they would not accept. I can see tough times ahead for Swiss based rather than French based workers.

Out of interest what are the watch companies paying the French? 4k ish a month, so not very different to Micros workers however with much more skill. You only need to look at the crappy cars in the car park to know they are not earning the 10k a month expat standard salary.
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Old 13.10.2015, 22:21
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

I'd be interested to know how they arrived at this agreement. I guess normally, you would have Switzerland tax the frontaliers at source and then they would have to claim tax relief in France.

I guess in theory, it would be much more efficient to have them file only a tax return in France and have France pay over the appropriate amount of tax and save everybody the hassle and administration.
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Old 13.10.2015, 22:22
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

There are actually very strict guidelines re not paying frontaliers lower salaries/salary dumping- for that very reason. I know some find ways around it- but the rules are there and the Communes and Swiss local gvt do keep a very close eye on this, looking for abuse. Yes, frontaliers do have very posh cars around here. I was discussing this with the owner/CEO of a large company recently, and told me to come and have a look at his car park. His comment was 'incroyable' - and the Swiss generally do not- they have the same salary, but much higher costs than the frontaliers. It does not help tensions, really.
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Old 13.10.2015, 22:23
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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I'd be interested to know how they arrived at this agreement. I guess normally, you would have Switzerland tax the frontaliers at source and then they would have to claim tax relief in France.

I guess in theory, it would be much more efficient to have them file only a tax return in France and have France pay over the appropriate amount of tax and save everybody the hassle and administration.
I suspect foreign workers was always assumed to be a temporary measure, so being a teflon envelope kind of negotiator was OK back in the old days, before Odile returned to rescue the canton.
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There are actually very strict guidelines re not paying frontaliers lower salaries/salary dumping- for that very reason. I know some find ways around it- but the rules are there and the Communes and Swiss local gvt do keep a very close eye on this, looking for abuse. Yes, frontaliers do have very posh cars around here. I was discussing this with the owner/CEO of a large company recently, and told me to come and have a look at his car park. His comment was 'incroyable' - and the Swiss generally do not- they have the same salary, but much higher costs than the frontaliers. It does not help tensions, really.
Supply & Demand, in ZH those workers would get 7k a month, they are earning 4k thats a huge difference.
Yes I was driven to lunch in the Owners son's Ferrari last time I was near you, the workers cars would not pass a Swiss MFK.

As far as the Swiss are concerned, their expenses are not relevant to what they are paid. They should cut their cloth..... or move to France
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Old 13.10.2015, 22:25
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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I guess in theory, it would be much more efficient to have them file only a tax return in France and have France pay over the appropriate amount of tax and save everybody the hassle and administration.
this is exactly what is supposed to happen according to the 1983 Treaty- they only file a tax return in France, and France has to pay 4.3% back- only problem is, they have not and owe millions.

Last edited by Odile; 13.10.2015 at 22:40.
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Old 14.10.2015, 15:05
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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Market manipulation always ends in tears, they could not carry on forever & ever.
You can only temporally 'buck' the market. In this case the game lasted 3 years.
The core job and duty of central banks is, in fact, to manipulate some of the most fundamental aspects of the economy. Namely, inflation, interest rates and money supply.

There is no such thing as a free market. Not even in theory.
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  #39  
Old 14.10.2015, 15:14
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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Market manipulation always ends in tears, they could not carry on forever & ever.
You can only temporally 'buck' the market. In this case the game lasted 3 years.
Well, some say the Chinese are playing the game with the US quite successfully for three decades...
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Old 14.10.2015, 15:41
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Re: French frontaliers debt grows

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this is exactly what is supposed to happen according to the 1983 Treaty- they only file a tax return in France, and France has to pay 4.3% back- only problem is, they have not and owe millions.
They should have done like Ticino with Italy:

Ticino gets all the taxes, and gives Italy about 38.8%.

I guess the Ticinese are a bit smarter than the Romands.

(but not as smart as the cantons with Austrian frontaliers, as Austria only gets 12.5%! )

Tom
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