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  #81  
Old 02.12.2015, 08:56
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Well citizenship ceremonies were only introduced in 2003 so either you took a long time to get your citizenship or you're telling porkie pies odile!

And if you protested having to do this or got your mates to protest your citizenship ceremony then I can absolutely guarentee you'd still get your certificate. This part of the ceremony is merely a formality in the UK
You had to swear aliegiance long before citizenship ceremonies were thought of. My OH had to in the 80s.
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  #82  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:09
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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What controversy? Traditions change. Are you saying a woman in 1970 should have just shut up because she didn't have the vote in order not to stir up controversy? It's a bit ridiculous to expect someone to be tradition-following drone in order to fit in.



Most of my Swiss friends are geeky missfits and that doesn't make them less Swiss. I'm also pretty sure they contribute more to the Swiss economy and Switzerland's scientific community than a bunch of weird anti-vegans in some village mobbing a woman they don't like. I bet being gay in such a community would also grant one as unacceptable too. Does that mean they should also be denied citizenship? What if this woman was in a wheelchair or had a facial deformity? We're not in high school anymore, this kind of pettiness doesn't belong at this level.



I guess citizenship means different things to different people, but considering she's spent 75% of her life here, had her family here, is involved in local politics and is invested in her community makes her a better citizen than most people in that community even if nobody agreed with her dietary choices (which let's face, is a dietary choice). But we don't live in Saudi Arabia and we don't police people's opinions here. Switzerland still has a lot of room to grow.

You've taken what I said to a ridiculous extreme, and added sexist overtones which are not from me.

And being a vegan does not require campaigning against eating meat etc. One is a simple personal choice the other a position often claimed as the moral high ground.

Having an opinion is fine. Voicing it is fine. Campaigning against the values of your community is also fine and sometimes necessary.

But that community also has the democratic right to not accept this where they believe it has gone too far.

You can't claim a voice and then complain when others use a direct democratic process to disagree!
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  #83  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:13
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Why would that be dumb? I think true citizenship bears some social responsibilities to the country. So for example, should a professed anarchist be granted citizenship anywhere? Could be a very politically involved anarchist at that.

hmmm, maybe in Germany or Sweden they might. But strikes me as very dumb to do.
So anarchist right out. Got it.
Now keep going. You will eventually get there.
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  #84  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:28
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Err, actually, no, not in Canada.

if you're talking about this guy, he's now a citizen.
Actually, yes, in Canada you DO have to swear allegiance to the Queen to obtain citizenship. The guy you're referring to renounced his oath of allegiance straight afterwards, saying he supported the oath and responsibilities of citizenship 100% except for the one point of allegiance to the Queen.

Incidentally, the requirement for wannabe citizens of Australia to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen was dropped some time ago. So despite being behind Canada in flag design, Australia's ahead on republican issues.
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  #85  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:32
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

My views on this are twofold:

1. Nancy knew her area required voters to approve her citizenship yet she decided to anger the neighbours with her outspoken views. Not very smart, Nancy.

However, as a poster mentioned before, if she appeals, the vote may be overturned since the council has approved her citizenship.

2. Switzerland needs to change their laws so that all candidates either meet citizenship requirements or not. A public vote on citizenship approval is subjective (as seen in Nancy's case) and therefore not fair.
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  #86  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:37
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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You had to swear aliegiance long before citizenship ceremonies were thought of. My OH had to in the 80s.
Was this just done in private in the past?
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Old 02.12.2015, 09:41
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Switzerland needs to change their laws so that all candidates either meet citizenship requirements or not. A public vote on citizenship approval is subjective (as seen in Nancy's case) and therefore not fair.
It's not about Switzerland changing its laws. Citizenship here is at a grass roots level -- Swiss citizens have triple citizenship, with the "most important" level recognised as being that at the municipality/Gemeinde level. So what you want is a change of law at the municipality level. But why? What's wrong with the local citizens voting democratically whether to accept someone into their club? Of course it's a subjective vote. All voting is subjective, by its very nature -- it's an expression of opinion. Otherwise there'd be no need for voting in political elections; the person "objectively" best suited to office would simply be appointed.

Last edited by 22 yards; 02.12.2015 at 09:53. Reason: Too many otherwises.
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  #88  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:43
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Was this just done in private in the past?
You had to go and visit the Queen and swear at her. Her footmen and corgis would bear witness. That's what that guy in her bedroom all those years ago was trying to do.
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  #89  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:51
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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2. Switzerland needs to change their laws so that all candidates either meet citizenship requirements or not. A public vote on citizenship approval is subjective (as seen in Nancy's case) and therefore not fair.
And what if a requirement for citizenship is integration, with the approval of your fellow citizens being taken as a measure of that integration?
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  #90  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:53
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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You had to go and visit the Queen and swear at her.
I think this is similar to the misunderstanding the CH/AG applicant had.

With the Queen there's probably also a bunch of guys standing around with swords as well, so it's more like Appenzell.
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  #91  
Old 02.12.2015, 09:57
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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I think this is similar to the misunderstanding the CH/AG applicant had.

With the Queen there's probably also a bunch of guys standing around with swords as well, so it's more like Appenzell.
Apparently not in her bedroom, though, at least not in 1982.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:01
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Actually, yes, in Canada you DO have to swear allegiance to the Queen to obtain citizenship. The guy you're referring to renounced his oath of allegiance straight afterwards, saying he supported the oath and responsibilities of citizenship 100% except for the one point of allegiance to the Queen.
I don't know much about Canadian law, but in Britain the monarch is so embedded in the law that you can't just strike out one sentence and pretend she's not there, legally speaking. There are so many references to judgements or proclamaitions being in her name or she granting the power or the right for whatever, or things being as they are because one of her ancestors arbitrarily decided or appointed something or other. If ever Britain were to become a republic there would have to be a wholesale re-writing of legal principles because so much would lose its justification.

For a person with limited understanding of such matters to unilaterally withdraw their allegiance can create a legal conundrum.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:17
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

Well Phil is getting on a bit one supposes.

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Apparently not in her bedroom, though, at least not in 1982.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:26
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

Maybe one should ask the cows what they think about these heavy bells around their neck. They reach decibel levels of up to 113db. Or maybe the UDC supporters on this forum can wear one for a week to show their allegiance to the great traditions. Ha.

http://www.geek.com/geek-cetera/it-t...rable-1605552/
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:26
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Well citizenship ceremonies were only introduced in 2003 so either you took a long time to get your citizenship or you're telling porkie pies odile!

And if you protested having to do this or got your mates to protest your citizenship ceremony then I can absolutely guarentee you'd still get your certificate. This part of the ceremony is merely a formality in the UK
Porkie pies?!? I had to go to a special Commissioner for Oaths and I can assure you the Commissioner, who looked and dressed like Captain Mannering was taking the whole thing VERY seriously- had I only smiled he would have called the cops. That ceremony was totally compulsory at the time, and I had to swear on the Bible. You were probably not born then! And there was no swapping of driving licence either- you had to do it al again.
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  #96  
Old 02.12.2015, 10:32
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

I think citizenship is more than just a right. It is also an obligation. If one doesn't want to pull their weight in that obligation, fine. Just don't consider yourself a full fledged citizen.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:35
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Or maybe the UDC supporters on this forum can wear one for a week to show their allegiance to the great traditions. Ha.
In our village, the primary school children have been walking around the village ringing cow bells every morning before dawn.


So, yeah, innit?
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  #98  
Old 02.12.2015, 10:43
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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Errr, I know a lot of Swiss people that think the bells are stupid.
Like the saying 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people' ... Bells aren't stupid, the people who ring the bells are stupid. ;-)



I have a hunch that if you asked the Swiss electorate today if they wanted to permanently end church bells ringing daily, even the (Swiss Swiss) ones who find them anachronistic and dumb would not want their country dropping traditions just yet nor would they appreciate an Auslander telling them what was best for their society. I may be wrong.

Anyhow one of the many reasons I love it here in Switzerland is because of its retention of tradition. I prefer it to the UK in the way that the brave new world takes off inexorably into modernity and progress and rubs out things like Cheese Rolling contests, knowing the name of your next door neighbour, etc etc.

I like the church bells ringing (although admittedly I don't live that close to a church) and when I do hear the bells in the evening, I think it sounds kind of romantic. I personally also appreciate other things here like keeping Sunday special for various beneficial reasons even though it can be irksome to me sometimes when a working week means shopping on Saturdays can be relatively quite busy.

There might be a few things I personally wouldn't mind changing here in Switzerland but I really do like it a lot here just the way it is, especially in contrast the crazy world we see on the international news every day at the moment.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:56
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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... A public vote on citizenship approval is subjective (as seen in Nancy's case) and therefore not fair.
Does not necessarily logically follow.
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Old 02.12.2015, 10:57
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Re: Church bells opponent denied Swiss citizenship!

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There might be a few things I personally wouldn't mind changing here in Switzerland but I really do like it a lot here just the way it is, especially in contrast the crazy world we see on the international news every day at the moment.
The Swiss put up with the same things foreigners do. Same peeves and same nuisances. When there are things that are intolerable, they do something else, like move away to another place or country. To the US, Asia, wherever.

But how is it that foreigners who don't like certain things here demand it changed to suit their personal tastes? Its somewhat thick skinned. I'm fine with the Swiss putting such foreigners in their place as part of their integration experience.
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