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  #101  
Old 23.12.2015, 18:30
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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This is extremely common and has been the case for centuries. When poor Italians arrived in Switzerland, it was the men first- to see if they could make it work, if they could earn enough to keep the family- then the families joined them a year or two or more later. Same when my Swiss aunts and uncles went to the USA and Canada, and others to Australia. When my OH's family escaped from the vicious and nasty system of apartheid, father came first, to suss things out, then mother, and children were brought over by an aunt later.
Even for war-torn countries? I fully understand this scenario for economic refugees - send the guys over to see if they can make a living and bring the family later. However if you're talking about a place like Syria it makes no sense (to me) to abandon your wife and kids as if they are "safe where they are" until you can set up shop somewhere else.

In fact, since being in CH I've heard more than one story of folks fleeing the Nazis - The parents sent the children alone or one woman and a child first to avoid suspicion and the fathers and brothers followed later when it was deemed safe (assuming they were still alive).

I still don't have an easy solution to the situation, no matter what type of refugee we're talking about. Resources are more abundant in Europe than in any of the countries whose folks are coming over, so surely with a little management and creative thinking and empathy we can work something out?
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  #102  
Old 23.12.2015, 18:59
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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Look .. This is what I see daily, everyday, morning and night, it's my only contact with with the story.
If i had a another lovely story about seeing them helping old ladies across the road I'd say that seven times.

I promise I won't say it again.
I don't doubt that this is what you see and it clearly bothers you but it wasn't necessary to repeat it several times, once would have been enough. I would have said the same if you'd repeated the lady being helped across the road story 7 times too.
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  #103  
Old 23.12.2015, 19:24
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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Its more because they are the strongest and the fittest. Who knows how many people they threw overboard on their way over.

Oh, oh, oh, they are angelic saints? Nevermind.
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That isn't a view, that is based on media reports of actual events of Christians being thrown overboard by migrants on the way over. Offensive for sure.
While it is true that SOME people on the boats sought out Christians to throw them overboard - when the boat was sinking - it is not true that ALL people on the boats did this. Nor is it true that all non-Christians would condone such behaviour. Nor is it true that some people who call themselves Christian wouldn't indulge in such behaviour against non-Christians.

Your usage of THEY suggests that all non-Christian refugees are regularly throwing Christians overboard, as a matter of course.

And that, sir, is highly offensive. And of course it is a lie. As you are someone who purports to follow Jesus, who is the Truth, you should be ashamed.
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  #104  
Old 23.12.2015, 19:46
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I stopped by at the Texaid bank today and dropped off several bags of clothing which we no longer wear, good shoes and trainers. As the homeworker I've prepared a couple of very nice pork steaks, country cuts and a medley of buttered vegetables and I'm just waiting for the missus to come home. We'll clank a glass or two of Mouton Cadet over dinner whilst cursing those refugees worse off than we are. Those who are apparently blotting the landscape of other immigrants whilst living in bunkers.

The law was initiated as a counter-meme to flippant comparisons to the Nazis, rather than to invoke a complete ban on comparisons.

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  #105  
Old 23.12.2015, 20:37
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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While it is true that SOME people on the boats sought out Christians to throw them overboard - when the boat was sinking - it is not true that ALL people on the boats did this. Nor is it true that all non-Christians would condone such behaviour. Nor is it true that some people who call themselves Christian wouldn't indulge in such behaviour against non-Christians.

Your usage of THEY suggests that all non-Christian refugees are regularly throwing Christians overboard, as a matter of course.

And that, sir, is highly offensive. And of course it is a lie. As you are someone who purports to follow Jesus, who is the Truth, you should be ashamed.
No, no, no. It is much easier to say ALL are bad. To do otherwise makes things too complicated and my head starts to hurt. I mean, what you are suggesting is that some of the people might be good and some bad! I can't possibly manage this, because everyone here is clearly good. Besides, they are all Muslims. And we all know that ALL Muslims are bad!

Besides, you're talking about a massive massive influx of these scavengers into Europe. About a million this year at the last estimate? Across the European population of 711million - Jesus wept! Don't you realise THEY ARE TAKING OVER! EVERYTHING! In fact, I think they are here to scout the "talent" and kidnap children into slavery. Think Rotherham!

*sigh*
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  #106  
Old 23.12.2015, 20:39
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Re: refugees in bunkers

I'm knitting woolly hats for them.
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  #107  
Old 23.12.2015, 20:40
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Re: refugees in bunkers

What a load of bollocks.

Looks like I'll be spending the rest of Christmas on Imgur instead.
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  #108  
Old 23.12.2015, 21:00
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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Looks like I'll be spending the rest of Christmas on Imgur instead.
Is that a dating app?
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  #109  
Old 23.12.2015, 21:27
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Europe was going to flood with refugees regardless of Merkels brief door opening.
No, I won't let Merkel off the hook. A woman I've long admired made perhaps the worst political gaffe I've witnessed in 40+ years of following politics. She made an open invitation which would affect the lives of hundreds of millions of Europeans, without asking us first.

The worst aspect is that her 800,000 figure is totally specious. That figure has now been easily surpassed, and there are millions more on the way or planning to come. Did she really think they would obediently stop at 800K?

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What happens now will determine whether we want to live in a just and sociable and fair society or whether we would rather follow a model of greed and selfishness...
Please accept that there is nothing "just and fair" about an open-door immigration policy for the world's poor. It is stating the obvious that this is not the solution. The answer is for them to take responsibility as individuals, and for us to help them make a success of their own countries.

In the UK at least, there are many poor and homeless people, and public services are being cut as we speak. Wages for the low-skilled are very low. There is already a housing crisis. Any further influx of unskilled, low-wage migrants expecting to see their extended families bankrolled through education, housing, employment and healthcare is nothing less than a scandal.

And I don't appreciate being told that I'm "greedy" and accused of not believing in social justice. I want to see as much fairness as possible, but importing millions of unskilled people with little to offer their hosts beyond demands for charity, is certainly not fairness in my eyes. Let's be fair to our own people before we start to open our wallets to innumerable economic migrants.

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I stopped by at the Texaid bank today and dropped off several bags of clothing which we no longer wear, good shoes and trainers. As the homeworker I've prepared a couple of very nice pork steaks, country cuts and a medley of buttered vegetables and I'm just waiting for the missus to come home. We'll clank a glass or two of Mouton Cadet over dinner whilst cursing those refugees worse off than we are. Those who are apparently blotting the landscape of other immigrants whilst living in bunkers.
Mouton Cadet? Really? Christ Almighty. The trouble with saying that is that I start to doubt the rest of what you say.

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  #110  
Old 23.12.2015, 21:53
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Re: refugees in bunkers

I'm trying really hard to notice any negative impact on my daily life that I can attribute to these refugees as I live just about 1km from a center with more than 600 asylum seekers and apparently I'm supposed to be concerned. I see them walking to Aldi to go shopping, and I gather there's talk about littering in the forest behind their living quarters but I go running there regularly and never see an unusual amount of garbage...nothing like the ridiculous amount of trash I saw this summer on the banks on the river, where, incidentally, I didn't see a single person that I would peg as an asylum seeker. I still have my nice house, my salary is the same, traffic hasn't gotten worse, public transport isn't any more overloaded than it was before the "crisis", crime hasn't risen, there's got to some sort of negative impact on people to cause them to get so bent out of shape about the whole thing, so what is it?


We've been donating old toys and clothes for a few years now and every time, without fail, I see happy cheerful kids waving and saying thank you. I went by the other day with my son and while he was playing with some kids, I was talking to a nice guy from Afghanistan and another from Iran. I told them I was American, honestly a bit afraid of their reaction as they're all basically there because of my country in one way or another, but it didn't seem to bother them one bit.


The center is understaffed, there aren't enough quarters to house everyone so they've had to expand into other buildings on the campus, and have had to move the "recreation areas" to trailers on site. We'll be going back and doing some cooking and craft classes with the kids, I'm still waiting for my first negative experience with an asylum seeker.
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  #111  
Old 23.12.2015, 22:02
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Re: refugees in bunkers

This is nothing new. The wealthy elite in Victorian Britain tried to contain the poor; the monarchy in France the same. It's just on a more global scale now; most of us here live in comfort compared to many other parts of the world and we either wall ourselves in gated communities (now gated countries) to keep them out and ourselves rich, or we allow the movement and the slow rebalancing of wealth.

We might become a little bit less rich, and the poor a little bit less poor. Life still won't be fair, but to fight against even this slight change is selfish. Which is understandable as we as a species are selfish, but it's a fight which will be lost due to sheer numbers.
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  #112  
Old 23.12.2015, 22:21
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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Europe was going to flood with refugees regardless of Merkels brief door opening. Europe is beginning to feel the flow of a massive movement of people, that is going to grow in size. Not only because of war, but because of population growth, environmental issues, famine and poverty. What happens now will determine whether we want to live in a just and sociable and fair society or whether we would rather follow a model of greed and selfishness and hold onto our wealth, which will diminish either way for most normal people. These ebbs and flows of populations have always been here, but we are so comfortable in our apathy and because most of us have never experienced these things in our lifetime, that we don't think it will affect us. And as long as we donate a couple of francs or pounds somebody else will sort the problems out, that is until the problem land at our doors.
This argument has become very emotional, so dietetic is difficult, but I'm going to try anyway:

You and the people expressing similar sentiments have good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you've ever worked with an non-government organization (NGO) that works in the third world, you'll know that there's very sharp limits to how charity can help, rather than hinder, a society. I had a friend who went to Kenya, who I supported from home while he was there, to try and setup a water filter factory. He came back jaded and went into economics. Basically he couldn't get workmen under contract to actually show up to work. The culture of responsibility simply doesn't exist. If you want to be paternalistic and 'raise' someone up from an African culture, you'll have to isolate them from their tribe and then build them back up, one individual at a time. Huge groups in a new locale will never, ever take the risk of separating from their tribe if they can avoid it.

I'll give you another example that is happening right now as a limit on charity: Daesh (ISIS) is 'collecting' wheat as tax in the territory they occupy and smuggling it into Turkey for sale to fuel their war machine. NGOs are currently inflating the price of wheat in Turkey, because they are buying it and then shipping it to Syria. Do you see the moral hazard here? We have no idea if Daesh is then collecting wheat from the NGOs and reselling it in Turkey.

You talk of 'generosity', but personally I don't see how consigning millions of people to minimum wage serfdom is 'generous'. Do you pine to live in a country like Dubai or India where hiring personal servants is common? The rentier class wants cheap labour. Everyone who earns a salary or wage should oppose the creation of a servant class. All the statistics are clear, the mass immigrant waves in the 1950-60s didn't succeed economically. I.e., see page 20 in this report:

http://www.ie-ei.eu/ie-ei/ressources...villaverde.pdf

German Turks are still way below ethnic Germans economically, and Algerians in France are generally confined to banlieues (and Marseilles). So rationally (as opposed to emotionally), what can you say is the upside for the people in this migrant wave? Are they actually better off as lower class in Europe compared to middle class elsewhere? Is it just to consign their grandchildren to be resented for existing?

Don't conflate what you want to happen with what the maximum likelihood scenario is. That's where idealism and ideology turns evil, even if you have good intentions. Everyone can rationalize in their brain that they are doing the 'right' thing. The long-term potential for bloodshed is being laid right now. Stop the shaming rhetoric.
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  #113  
Old 23.12.2015, 23:29
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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This is extremely common and has been the case for centuries. When poor Italians arrived in Switzerland, it was the men first- to see if they could make it work, if they could earn enough to keep the family- then the families joined them a year or two or more later. Same when my Swiss aunts and uncles went to the USA and Canada, and others to Australia. When my OH's family escaped from the vicious and nasty system of apartheid, father came first, to suss things out, then mother, and children were brought over by an aunt later.
That's exactly the point that many here are making. If the refugees are coming to Europe because they are oppressed in their home countries and fear for their lives, then one would expect the whole family to come. (In many of the affected countries, the man/father/husband is the sole breadwinner -- so what is the rest of the family going to do while the breadwinner is away? Just wait for remittances back home? There's no reason to leave the family in danger, with no local income -- it makes much more sense for the whole family to move to safety and have a local income.)

What you just described above is pure economic migration. The examples above are of people moving for money, not for a safe life away from the fear of death -- and in those instances a "wait-and-see-if-it-works-out" approach, sending the breadwinner on ahead, may make sense.

But no man who cares about his family leaves them in mortal danger to see if life in Europe just might be safer.
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  #114  
Old 23.12.2015, 23:31
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While it is true that SOME people on the boats sought out Christians to throw them overboard - when the boat was sinking - it is not true that ALL people on the boats did this. Nor is it true that all non-Christians would condone such behaviour. Nor is it true that some people who call themselves Christian wouldn't indulge in such behaviour against non-Christians.

Your usage of THEY suggests that all non-Christian refugees are regularly throwing Christians overboard, as a matter of course.

And that, sir, is highly offensive. And of course it is a lie. As you are someone who purports to follow Jesus, who is the Truth, you should be ashamed.
You're exaggerating my comment to avoid the issues. All I said is that who know what who did to whom. So you want to accuse me of lying? Duh, stay on topic!

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You and the people expressing similar sentiments have good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You talk of 'generosity', but personally I don't see how consigning millions of people to minimum wage serfdom is 'generous'.
Not only that, this "generous" sentiment seems to offer up a lot of things that don't even belong to them. But that is not even generosity. It seems rather paternalistic to prescribe to a culture to act against its culture, and that is what this set of migrant expats seem to be trying to preach to its host culture. All the while, the UK, the US, Denmark, the Visigrad states are holding back to manage the situation. Even the Norwegian states have seen the effect and are turning back towards better managing this situation.

I think the difference here is that some have a sense of responsibility, while others really don't and could care less one way or another how things turn out for something they might be able to walk away from themselves.


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Do you pine to live in a country like Dubai or India where hiring personal servants is common? The rentier class wants cheap labour. Everyone who earns a salary or wage should oppose the creation of a servant class. All the statistics are clear, the mass immigrant waves in the 1950-60s didn't succeed economically. I.e., see page 20 in this report:
Not to mention the brain drain that is taking place. At this rate, these affected regions may never recover. Mass escapism is not the solution for this.

Ah, but it makes one feel better about oneself, you say? I don't think you know whether it is helping the situation or making it worse. It may just as well be transplanting the problems from there to here.
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  #115  
Old 24.12.2015, 00:10
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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That's exactly the point that many here are making. If the refugees are coming to Europe because they are oppressed in their home countries and fear for their lives, then one would expect the whole family to come. (In many of the affected countries, the man/father/husband is the sole breadwinner -- so what is the rest of the family going to do while the breadwinner is away? Just wait for remittances back home? There's no reason to leave the family in danger, with no local income -- it makes much more sense for the whole family to move to safety and have a local income.)

What you just described above is pure economic migration. The examples above are of people moving for money, not for a safe life away from the fear of death -- and in those instances a "wait-and-see-if-it-works-out" approach, sending the breadwinner on ahead, may make sense.

But no man who cares about his family leaves them in mortal danger to see if life in Europe just might be safer.
Well, um, no. The vast majority of Syrians coming over are indeed young men. And that's not exactly surprising: There has been a war going on for six years. At the beginning did the army fight some rebels. By now do you have so many different players there that nobody really knows whats going on - even a politically interested person like me has lost track why some islamists are apparently our friends and others are terrorists... but all parties have one thing in common: If you live in the area controlled by them and happen to be a young man will you find yourself pretty soon with a gun in your hand pushed up to the front line. That's what those men are running away from: getting drafted into the Syrian army, the Al Nusra front, the "Free Syrian Army" or whoever it is today. They simply refuse to die for Assad, against Assad, in the name of Allah or anyone else.

The upside of islamists is that they do not force women to fight, so yes, females live a little safer there... (as long as you are not Kurdish, Christian or the wrong type of Muslim depending on where you exactly are).

I find it absolutely logical that it's mostly men trying to flee and mostly young ones as well as boys. I'd do the exact same they do in their situation and run away. Who here would seriously volunteer to stay and fight against some nutters like IS or Assads army? That certain political forces in Europe seriously claim it's just for economic reasons is in my opinion so low that I'd not even discuss it - if they'd not be so successful with their claims.
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  #116  
Old 24.12.2015, 00:17
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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I find it absolutely logical that it's mostly men trying to flee and mostly young ones as well as boys. I'd do the exact same they do in their situation and run away. Who here would seriously volunteer to stay and fight against some nutters like IS or Assads army?
I would.

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Old 24.12.2015, 00:31
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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I would.

Tom
Of course you would. You're Tom, lest we forget.
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Old 24.12.2015, 00:56
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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I find it absolutely logical that it's mostly men trying to flee and mostly young ones as well as boys. I'd do the exact same they do in their situation and run away. Who here would seriously volunteer to stay and fight against some nutters like IS or Assads army?
Our grandparents obviously had bigger balls 75 years ago.
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Old 24.12.2015, 01:13
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Our grandparents obviously had bigger balls 75 years ago.
The German invasion of the Netherlands took four days of fighting till your grandpas army surrendered... Syria has seen six years of bloodbaths and no end in sight. Chances are that those refugee "cowards" endured way more than your or my grandpa...
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Old 24.12.2015, 02:09
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Re: refugees in bunkers

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The German invasion of the Netherlands took four days of fighting till your grandpas army surrendered...
What do you expect from such a bunch of war criminals.

Pity we nuked Japan.

Tom
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