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  #321  
Old 30.01.2016, 15:29
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

What seems to be missing in all of this, it is not only about grievous bodily harm and it is not about foreigners. It is about non-serious crime and secondos, who have as much right to be here as anyone else does. They cannot be dumped in the foreigners pot and stirred twice to make a stew. It doesn't work that way. It relates to everyone who does not have Swiss passport and that happens to be quite a few people on this very forum. Getting high and mighty and presenting foreigners as bad eggs is pretty much the same as cutting off your nose to spite your face. A lot of what has been said about this initiative has been lies and what it boils down to is how gullible people want to be. Go ahead and believe that this will help prevent crime, it won't. The SVP wants Switzerland to be whiter place and it has nothing to do with making it a safer place.
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  #322  
Old 30.01.2016, 15:31
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Ironically, its actually an admission it would not harm EMRK standings, and would actually encourage more people to vote for the initiative.
So at last you are finally admitting this is what it's all about for many.
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  #323  
Old 30.01.2016, 15:33
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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What seems to be missing in all of this, it is not only about grievous bodily harm and it is not about foreigners. It is about non-serious crime and secondos, who have as much right to be here as anyone else does. They cannot be dumped in the foreigners pot and stirred twice to make a stew. It doesn't work that way. It relates to everyone who does not have Swiss passport and that happens to be quite a few people on this very forum. Getting high and mighty and presenting foreigners as bad eggs is pretty much the same as cutting off your nose to spite your face. A lot of what has been said about this initiative has been lies and what it boils down to is how gullible people want to be. Go ahead and believe that this will help prevent crime, it won't. The SVP wants Switzerland to be whiter place and it has nothing to do with making it a safer place.

I agree it is unfair in some situations. How can you make anyone stateless. And then I learned that the UK actually passed a law to strip individuals of British citizenship even if it makes someone stateless. And they've already applied it a number of times.

As Sommaruga pointed out, these cannot be carried through without contention for basic human rights. So it appears the the "automatism" claimed by those who exaggerate this is already debunked.

And by the way, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. A cultural one, maybe. But I can tell you that I am not of the Swiss race, and I support the principles of this. Most of those to be deported would be EU citizens, by the way.
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  #324  
Old 30.01.2016, 15:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You have to ask more intelligent and worthwhile questions Marton. I ignore petty spam.

You argue against your imaginary Phos instead of advancing the topic.

The more disinformation you post without quoting any sources or providing any other verification the more you demonstrate the problems of this initiative.


There are far more people posting against this initiative now than when this thread started, congratulations.
Please do ignore my questions; people draw their own conclusions
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  #325  
Old 30.01.2016, 15:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

"And by the way, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. A cultural one, maybe. But I can tell you that I am not of the Swiss race, and I support the principles of this. Most of those to be deported would be EU citizens, by the way."


So you can actually support a law that would allow yourself to be deported for two offences? I am Swiss, though not by birth, and I am horrified that this initiative is even up for vote. I expect more from my country and I expect more from my politicians than ridiculous hate mongering. It is not supportable and it is a shame that there are enough people who believe the lie that crimes are committed by foreigners and by default, secondos are foreigners. How many people do you know who fall into the secondo category and I don't mean have C permit and work here for 10 years. I mean people who are born here, have gone to school here and for what ever reason do not have a Swiss passport and have no affinity to their "motherland". In their minds, this is their motherland. SVP always covers up racism with cultural issues and the line between the two has become terribly blurred.
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  #326  
Old 30.01.2016, 16:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

'The Swiss' whoever they are, are currently split 50/50 - and it is clear that the old idea peddled by many that it is a left/right divide is proven wrong. As said again, the largest party representing the traditional right, the business people and professionals, is very much against- not just the socialists!
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  #327  
Old 30.01.2016, 16:13
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I agree it is unfair in some situations. How can you make anyone stateless. And then I learned that the UK actually passed a law to strip individuals of British citizenship even if it makes someone stateless. And they've already applied it a number of times.

As Sommaruga pointed out, these cannot be carried through without contention for basic human rights. So it appears the the "automatism" claimed by those who exaggerate this is already debunked.

And by the way, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. A cultural one, maybe. But I can tell you that I am not of the Swiss race, and I support the principles of this. Most of those to be deported would be EU citizens, by the way.
"passed a law to strip individuals of British citizenship" So you foresee the next step by the SVP will an initiative to withdraw people's Swiss citizenship?
Thanks for the warning
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  #328  
Old 30.01.2016, 16:14
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I agree it is unfair in some situations. How can you make anyone stateless. And then I learned that the UK actually passed a law to strip individuals of British citizenship even if it makes someone stateless. And they've already applied it a number of times.

As Sommaruga pointed out, these cannot be carried through without contention for basic human rights. So it appears the the "automatism" claimed by those who exaggerate this is already debunked.

And by the way, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. A cultural one, maybe. But I can tell you that I am not of the Swiss race, and I support the principles of this. Most of those to be deported would be EU citizens, by the way.
You do have Swiss citizenship?
More Phos disinformation

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  #329  
Old 30.01.2016, 19:48
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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"And by the way, I don't see this as a racial issue at all. A cultural one, maybe. But I can tell you that I am not of the Swiss race, and I support the principles of this. Most of those to be deported would be EU citizens, by the way."


So you can actually support a law that would allow yourself to be deported for two offences? I am Swiss, though not by birth, and I am horrified that this initiative is even up for vote. I expect more from my country and I expect more from my politicians than ridiculous hate mongering. It is not supportable and it is a shame that there are enough people who believe the lie that crimes are committed by foreigners and by default, secondos are foreigners. How many people do you know who fall into the secondo category and I don't mean have C permit and work here for 10 years. I mean people who are born here, have gone to school here and for what ever reason do not have a Swiss passport and have no affinity to their "motherland". In their minds, this is their motherland. SVP always covers up racism with cultural issues and the line between the two has become terribly blurred.
This isn't that unique of a referendum. There is a similar version just about to go from Merkel's cabinet to the german parliament. The socialist party in France is picking up the issue and will be debating it next month. Similar laws are already in place in the UK and the US.

As a Swiss citizen, sure I would support this, even if it could be applied to me. I don't have any intention nor plan to commit a crime. The current data shows a disproportionate number of crimes by foreigners. To bring it down, this is a valid governance model. And programs around this is good for everybody, foreigners included.

And also, I could care less about the SVP nor Sommaruga in the whole scheme of things. This isn't about them. They aren't sacred cows. This is about Switzerland. Its bigger than you, me or them.
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  #330  
Old 30.01.2016, 20:08
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This isn't that unique of a referendum. There is a similar version just about to go from Merkel's cabinet to the german parliament. The socialist party in France is picking up the issue and will be debating it next month. Similar laws are already in place in the UK and the US.

As a Swiss citizen, sure I would support this, even if it could be applied to me. I don't have any intention nor plan to commit a crime. The current data shows a disproportionate number of crimes by foreigners. To bring it down, this is a valid governance model. And programs around this is good for everybody, foreigners included.

And also, I could care less about the SVP nor Sommaruga in the whole scheme of things. This isn't about them. They aren't holy calves. This is about Switzerland. Its bigger than you, me or them.
The Germans and French are going have referendums? No! You completely misunderstood?

"Similar laws are already in place in the UK and the US." Not true.

Switzerland already has deportation laws which according to Frau Sommaruga are more severe than other countries.

This initiative is not about introducing deportation. It is about depriving judges of the ability to vary sentences; in fact it organises that judges will be bypassed. Are you sure you read it

There is no other country that has similar laws depriving judges of their role.

More Phos disinformation!
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  #331  
Old 30.01.2016, 20:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Bliss, ignore is sheer bliss. Shhhhh.
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Old 31.01.2016, 01:08
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Ok, two things others have mentioned concern me about this.

1. 25% of the population of Switzerland (foreigners) are subject to harsher treatment for committing a given set of crimes than the other 75%. Losing your home and consequently your job is a harsher treatment by anyone's standards. The law does not apply equally to everyone, and is therefore unfair. Granted, the Swiss as a democracy can pass unfair laws, and will not be the first nation to pass an unfair law and/or enforce unfair laws.

2. They will create stateless people with this legislation in some cases. Example, I immigrated here 8 years ago. My daughter immigrated with me, and is now 16. she could have a child here, who will not automatically be a swiss national, but also will not automatically be American person either, because they are not born in America. 16 years later, this child could commit a crime on this list, and be deported... but.... where to? They would be stateless.
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  #333  
Old 31.01.2016, 01:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Ok, two things others have mentioned concern me about this.

1. 25% of the population of Switzerland (foreigners) are subject to harsher treatment for committing a given set of crimes than the other 75%. Losing your home and consequently your job is a harsher treatment by anyone's standards. The law does not apply equally to everyone, and is therefore unfair. Granted, the Swiss as a democracy can pass unfair laws, and will not be the first nation to pass an unfair law and/or enforce unfair laws.

2. They will create stateless people with this legislation in some cases. Example, I immigrated here 8 years ago. My daughter immigrated with me, and is now 16. she could have a child here, who will not automatically be a swiss national, but also will not automatically be American person either, because they are not born in America. 16 years later, this child could commit a crime on this list, and be deported... but.... where to? They would be stateless.


All true


" The law does not apply equally to everyone" And also the punishments are unfair; not proportional.


Examples,
  1. Social security fraud; no matter how small - immediate deportation
  2. Sex with a child - only deported after a repeat offence
  3. Tax fraud; do it as often as you like for large amounts - no deportation
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  #334  
Old 31.01.2016, 10:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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All true


" The law does not apply equally to everyone" And also the punishments are unfair; not proportional.


Examples,
  1. Social security fraud; no matter how small - immediate deportation
  2. Sex with a child - only deported after a repeat offence
  3. Tax fraud; do it as often as you like for large amounts - no deportation
Can you provide a source to back that up ?
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Old 31.01.2016, 11:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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  #336  
Old 31.01.2016, 11:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Can you provide a source to back that up ?
Read the initiative; it is all there

Strange how the people here who support the initiative do not want to read it? I wonder why?
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  #337  
Old 31.01.2016, 11:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Read the initiative; it is all there

Strange how the people here who support the initiative do not want to read it? I wonder why?
Didn't think so.
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  #338  
Old 31.01.2016, 11:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Didn't think so.
2. Das Gericht oder die Staatsanwaltschaft verweist Ausländerinnen und Ausländer, die wegen einer der folgenden strafbaren Handlungen verurteilt werden, aus dem Gebiet der Schweiz, wenn sie innerhalb der letzten zehn Jahre seit dem Entscheid bereits rechtskräftig zu einer Freiheits- oder Geldstrafe verurteilt worden sind:

e. sexuelle Handlungen mit Kindern (Art. 187 Ziff. 1 StGB), sexuelle Handlungen mit Abhängigen (Art. 188 Ziff. 1 StGB), sexuelle Handlungen mit Anstaltspfleglingen, Gefangenen, Beschuldigten (Art. 192 StGB), Ausnützung der Notlage (Art. 193 StGB), Pornografie (Art. 197 Ziff. 3 StGB);

Why do you support something you do not read, or maybe cannot read, or pretend not to read?
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Old 31.01.2016, 11:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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2. Das Gericht oder die Staatsanwaltschaft verweist Ausländerinnen und Ausländer, die wegen einer der folgenden strafbaren Handlungen verurteilt werden, aus dem Gebiet der Schweiz, wenn sie innerhalb der letzten zehn Jahre seit dem Entscheid bereits rechtskräftig zu einer Freiheits- oder Geldstrafe verurteilt worden sind:

e. sexuelle Handlungen mit Kindern (Art. 187 Ziff. 1 StGB), sexuelle Handlungen mit Abhängigen (Art. 188 Ziff. 1 StGB), sexuelle Handlungen mit Anstaltspfleglingen, Gefangenen, Beschuldigten (Art. 192 StGB), Ausnützung der Notlage (Art. 193 StGB), Pornografie (Art. 197 Ziff. 3 StGB);

Why do you support something you do not read, or maybe cannot read, or pretend not to read?
Seems to rather indicate that they would deport any foreigners who have committed those offences within the last 10 years... I don't see anything there about repeat offences. Care to retract ?
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  #340  
Old 31.01.2016, 12:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Seems to rather indicate that they would deport any foreigners who have committed those offences within the last 10 years... I don't see anything there about repeat offences. Care to retract ?
You really do not understand this initiative do you. So sad!
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