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  #421  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:04
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Indeed - personally I have no problem with the principle of deporting serious and/or habitual anti-social non-nationals. Actually, if we could extend it to nationals, I'd support that too.

However, by your own admission the initiative includes a "susceptibility to misrepresentation". It's badly written and vague. It is open to abuse. And cases where it can be abused (such as Sbrinz's first and third examples) have been cited here. And that's before we consider the conspicuous absence of crimes such as tax evasion from it.

Which is why I find strange that a seemingly rational individual would support such a flawed proposition, rather than seek that it return to the drawing board for redrafting and re-submission. Voters will probably not fully assess the risk because there is none for them - it does not affect them, after all, and as such the risk against what is effectively an disenfranchised, sizable, minority is frankly too great.

It is also better to redraft it, address this "susceptibility to misrepresentation", so that it gains greater support and a greater chance of being adopted. In pushing such a flawed initiative, its supporters risk a decreased chance of its adoption, which would ironically leave us without any such measure, not even a watered down one.

So even politically, your position is ultimately self defeating.
How do you deport a national? I don't believe in providing equal opportunity to commit crime. This is about tackling a specific sociological problem. It is a practical management issue, and it is not about ideology. This is part of a conversation on what people would like to have done about this problem.

I agree it could be better crafted to meet wider acceptance. Me personally, I don't believe in punishing economic crime harshly. My main interests are in reducing violent crime with innocent victims. But the Swiss have a different value than I, and they put a lot of weight on defrauding the communities they work hard to maintain. I won't argue with them on that, as that is their culture.

At the moment, this is the best measure put forth. It is a lot better than doing nothing. If this fails, and the FDP puts out their response, that is fine. The FDP is proposing the stripping of citizenships from naturalized citizens. I find that harsher than this, as it talks about making people stateless.

I support this knowing that it will not have the effect as exaggerated by the trolls on this thread. Sommaruga already said it cannot be applied in cases where it transgress human rights conventions. That tells me it can't be abused as exaggerated by trolls here. But it can still be applied it some cases as needed.
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  #422  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:30
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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How do you deport a national? I don't believe in providing equal opportunity to commit crime. This is about tackling a specific sociological problem. It is a practical management issue, and it is not about ideology. This is part of a conversation on what people would like to have done about this problem.

I agree it could be better crafted to meet wider acceptance. Me personally, I don't believe in punishing economic crime harshly. My main interests are in reducing violent crime with innocent victims. But the Swiss have a different value than I, and they put a lot of weight on defrauding the communities they work hard to maintain. I won't argue with them on that, as that is their culture.

At the moment, this is the best measure put forth. It is a lot better than doing nothing. If this fails, and the FDP puts out their response, that is fine. The FDP is proposing the stripping of citizenships from naturalized citizens. I find that harsher than this, as it talks about making people stateless.

I support this knowing that it will not have the effect as exaggerated by the trolls on this thread. Sommaruga already said it cannot be applied in cases where it transgress human rights conventions. That tells me it can't be abused as exaggerated by trolls here. But it can still be applied it some cases as needed.


"Sommaruga already said it cannot be applied in cases where it transgress human rights conventions" No, she did not.
As usual you will be unable to provide a source.
More Tom Jones disinformation!


Should you read the link Parnell kindly provided the Bundesrat stated ""The enforcement initiative is not only contrary to the principle of the rule of law laid down in the Federal Constitution but also contravenes international human rights guarantees and the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons with the EU.""


The appropriate Tom Jones song is "My Elusive Dreams"!
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  #423  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:35
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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How do you deport a national?
Never said you could. I simply said if we could extend it to nationals, I'd support that too. After all, as you claimed yourself, we're not talking about foreigners, but criminals - and criminals are criminals regardless of their origin. Is that not so?
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I agree it could be better crafted to meet wider acceptance. Me personally, I don't believe in punishing economic crime harshly. My main interests are in reducing violent crime with innocent victims. But the Swiss have a different value than I, and they put a lot of weight on defrauding the communities they work hard to maintain. I won't argue with them on that, as that is their culture.
Yet the initiative does not seem to treat defrauding the community through failure to pay tax in the same way as it does through other means. So your explanation does not hold water, I'm afraid.
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At the moment, this is the best measure put forth. It is a lot better than doing nothing.
Not if it creates more problems that it solves. Not if it's flawed nature is enough to cause it to be rejected, leaving us with no measure at all.
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If this fails, and the FDP puts out their response, that is fine. The FDP is proposing the stripping of citizenships from naturalized citizens. I find that harsher than this, as it talks about making people stateless.
What makes you think any alternative measure would be introduced? The initiative would have been rejected. The political wind would be gone from its sails. It could just as easily die, just as the causes of many failed initiatives in the past - indeed, probably would given past experience.

You appear to be supporting a flawed initiative just so 'something is done' which is either self defeating as it supports an initiative less likely to pass or, if passed, would see a deeply flawed measure come about. Unfortunately, supporting something simply so that 'something is done' is sometimes just dumb, for lack of a better term.

In short, your position is not logical - at least not for the aims you claim to be perusing.
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  #424  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:39
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Never said you could. I simply said if we could extend it to nationals, I'd support that too. After all, as you claimed yourself, we're not talking about foreigners, but criminals - and criminals are criminals regardless of their origin. Is that not so?

Yet the initiative does not seem to treat defrauding the community through failure to pay tax in the same way as it does through other means. So your explanation does not hold water, I'm afraid.

Not if it creates more problems that it solves. Not if it's flawed nature is enough to cause it to be rejected, leaving us with no measure at all.

What makes you think any alternative measure would be introduced? The initiative would have been rejected. The political wind would be gone from its sails. It could just as easily die, just as the causes of many failed initiatives in the past - indeed, probably would given past experience.

You appear to be supporting a flawed initiative just so 'something is done' which is either self defeating as it supports an initiative less likely to pass or, if passed, would see a deeply flawed measure come about. Unfortunately, supporting something simply so that 'something is done' is sometimes just dumb, for lack of a better term.

In short, your position is not logical - at least not for the aims you claim to be perusing.
As they say in medical circles; "sometimes the cure is worse than the disease".
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  #425  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

In any case, it will be 4x NO from me.

Tom
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  #426  
Old 01.02.2016, 12:58
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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What makes you think any alternative measure would be introduced? The initiative would have been rejected. The political wind would be gone from its sails. It could just as easily die, just as the causes of many failed initiatives in the past - indeed, probably would given past experience.
...
In short, your position is not logical - at least not for the aims you claim to be perusing.
It is logical and rational. The FDP also believes in deporting criminals, but not through this SVP initiative:
http://www.fdp.ch/kommunikation/1178...nitiative.html

If DSI fails, it doesn't mean the whole idea is scrapped. Someone will take up the responsibility to put forth another initiative.
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  #427  
Old 01.02.2016, 13:15
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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It is logical and rational. The FDP also believes in deporting criminals, but not through this SVP initiative:
http://www.fdp.ch/kommunikation/1178...nitiative.html
If it is logical and rational, please address the points I made, rather than ignore them and go off on a tangent.
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If DSI fails, it doesn't mean the whole idea is scrapped. Someone will take up the responsibility to put forth another initiative.
Like the gold initiative? The corporate bosses initiative? Membership of the EU?

I'm afraid that's wishful thinking on your part. Time and time again, when initiatives fail it means the issue is dead in the water for years to come. That this would not be the case should the DSI fail, is simply wishful thinking on your part.
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  #428  
Old 01.02.2016, 13:31
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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If it is logical and rational, please address the points I made, rather than ignore them and go off on a tangent.

Like the gold initiative? The corporate bosses initiative? Membership of the EU?

I'm afraid that's wishful thinking on your part. Time and time again, when initiatives fail it means the issue is dead in the water for years to come. That this would not be the case should the DSI fail, is simply wishful thinking on your part.
Which point is of particular importance for you? I may pass on it because its not of particular importance to me, such as Marton's many shallow rebuttals. That may be something for you to sort out, not me.

For as long as a problem exists, an attempt at a solution will not die in the water. The passage of the Ausschaffungsinitiative already voiced the will of the sovereign. If the government cannot follow through on that, they might as well declare Swiss democracy a sham. I know a lot of foreigners have contempt for Swiss democracy. It is an accomplishment that has proven results. Switzerland might actually be the last real democracy on earth. It will play out as needed.
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  #429  
Old 01.02.2016, 13:42
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Which point is of particular importance for you? I may pass on it because its not of particular importance to me, such as Marton's many shallow rebuttals. That may be something for you to sort out, not me.

For as long as a problem exists, an attempt at a solution will not die in the water. The passage of the Ausschaffungsinitiative already voiced the will of the sovereign. If the government cannot follow through on that, they might as well declare Swiss democracy a sham. I know a lot of foreigners have contempt for Swiss democracy. It is an accomplishment that has proven results. Switzerland might actually be the last real democracy on earth. It will play out as needed.


It is OK.
No need for you to make excuses; we all know you cannot provide any credible sources to support your disinformation nor provide any factual responses to rebuttals.


Facts are not shallow but emotions can be.
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  #430  
Old 01.02.2016, 15:18
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Which point is of particular importance for you? I may pass on it because its not of particular importance to me, such as Marton's many shallow rebuttals. That may be something for you to sort out, not me.
That it is a flawed proposal, likely to cause more problems than it solves and that in it's flawed state is much less likely to be adopted. I did not ask to hear more about what the FDP is counter proposing at present - that's irrelevant to what I pointed out.
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For as long as a problem exists, an attempt at a solution will not die in the water.
Then why have most, if not all, other failed initiatives died in the water despite the 'problems' that spawned them still existing? I'm afraid that pretty much rubbishes your assertion.
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I know a lot of foreigners have contempt for Swiss democracy. It is an accomplishment that has proven results.
I presume this is based on anecdotal evidence? If not, please share. Is this what you base your overall position on?
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  #431  
Old 01.02.2016, 15:40
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

AGain, the inititative takes the Judges out of the legal system. It's sheer madness. A young secondo gets caught speeding and later gets involved in a brawl- protecting someone being beaten up- and he would be automatically sent 'back' to a country he has never lived in. And there would be nothing, but nothing at all- anyone could do, let alone a Judge. Plain madness.
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  #432  
Old 01.02.2016, 15:41
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well I did ask repeatedly and got back some responses such as "Once" - einmal or "Twice" which didn't help... in any case it's ultimately my fault - but as Urs Max points out one word can make a significant difference.
Get me a working crystal ball and I'll give you a headsup next time.

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Not necessarily - if the criminals can be deported at a faster rate than they can be convicted the proportion of foreigners in Swiss jails will fall. Furthermore if deportation is automatic one struggles with the question as to why they would need lengthy stays in prison at all.

Having said that the question of costs is a significant one - and I'll certainly bring it up in conversation with peeps in the office today.
Do take note:
You can not deport a person if the destination country refuses the delivery.

If the DSI has have any effect at all on the speed they can be deported with, it will be an increased delay as many more cases seem likely to be taken to European Court of Human Rights, which of course will mean delay by perhaps years. And increase costs there, of course.

You are welcome to share your ideas and suggestions with the authorities, until then your statement unfortunately amounts to daydreaming.
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  #433  
Old 01.02.2016, 15:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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If the government cannot follow through on that, they might as well declare Swiss democracy a sham. I know a lot of foreigners have contempt for Swiss democracy. It is an accomplishment that has proven results. Switzerland might actually be the last real democracy on earth. It will play out as needed.
*cough* Paid maternity *cough* leave *cough* *cough*


Once again Phos you have no effing idea what you are talking about.
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  #434  
Old 01.02.2016, 16:00
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Switzerland used to be known as the world`s bankers.

Looks like it`s about to become the world`s prison.

Foreigners guilty of crimes in CH? Deport them? Country of origin just says "No thank you, we don`t want them, you keep them". So CH will have to just build bigger prisons. Solution to problem! Simple!

Swiss gaols are rather nicer than 3rd world prisons (so say my criminal friends) , more comfortable, cleaner, better food, en-suite showers/toilets, better facilities all round. Better than "home" actually.
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  #435  
Old 01.02.2016, 16:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

So could you please share how this Initiative would make a difference?
Will TVs be taken out of the cells, and cold porridge served twice a day?
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  #436  
Old 01.02.2016, 16:13
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So could you please share how this Initiative would make a difference?
Will TVs be taken out of the cells, and cold porridge served twice a day?
Oh, hopefully nothing will change.

Did I say anything would change? If you know something more, please do share your information. Or you just having a gaseous regurgitation again?
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  #437  
Old 01.02.2016, 16:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Gaseous regurgitation - now I like that, thanks.

But isn't it exactly what this initiative is, a useless gaseous regurgitation?

If as you clearly seem to agree- it will make no difference to the prioson conditions and cost- what is the flipping point? That, considering the real probability of serious consequences for our reciprocal arrangements with the EU and our economy/tourism/exports, etc- as warned by Economie Suisse and the PLR/SDP?
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  #438  
Old 01.02.2016, 17:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Indeed - personally I have no problem with the principle of deporting serious and/or habitual anti-social non-nationals. Actually, if we could extend it to nationals, I'd support that too.
As an aside: I have read in a few places that Britain is quietly cancelling the passports of people that have joined ISIS. I think they still retain their citizenship but cannot travel back again.
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  #439  
Old 01.02.2016, 20:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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That it is a flawed proposal, likely to cause more problems than it solves and that in it's flawed state is much less likely to be adopted. I did not ask to hear more about what the FDP is counter proposing at present - that's irrelevant to what I pointed out.

Then why have most, if not all, other failed initiatives died in the water despite the 'problems' that spawned them still existing? I'm afraid that pretty much rubbishes your assertion.

I presume this is based on anecdotal evidence? If not, please share. Is this what you base your overall position on?
You will probably have to wait a while for an answer

We are still waiting for Phos to explain his bizarre posts where he claimed this initiative is not about foreigners.

I will post his gem again for our delectation "It does not speak of foreigners, rather about criminals."


Oh, and the other gem "Foreigners are not criminals, as desperately as you try to associate DSI with foreigners"!
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  #440  
Old 01.02.2016, 21:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

I guess it's not about those kinds of foreigners but the other kinds...or something.
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