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  #41  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:21
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Has Switzerland ever deported anybody born here, or anyone to any place they aren't familiar with?

Other than that, I don't see why Switzerland should not have comparable deportation laws in parity with the UK, France, etc. The ability to deport criminal foreigners seems to be a tool that will be of some use in the future.

So how is this initiative polling? I assume it gained some popularity after Köln, and will likely pass. If only we lived in kinder and gentler times.
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  #42  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Has Switzerland ever deported anybody born here, or anyone to any place they aren't familiar with?

Other than that, I don't see why Switzerland should not have comparable deportation laws in parity with the UK, France, etc. The ability to deport criminal foreigners seems to be a tool that will be of some use in the future.

So how is this initiative polling? I assume it gained some popularity after Köln, and will likely pass. If only we lived in kinder and gentler times.
Switzerland even deports people whose parents were also borne here
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/third-ge...orted/41171994

and secondos
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...r-deportation/
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  #43  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Switzerland even deports people whose parents were also borne here
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/third-ge...orted/41171994

That article states it was a very rare case, and pending review. Did the deportation actually take place?
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  #44  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:33
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

1. Nobody in Germany is proposing deportation without a fair asylum process and a fair criminal trial.

Where is the difference?

The Swiss want to be able to throw out any foreigner. The ones who have a resident permit and have lived in Switzerland for a long time. Germany only discusses people who currently have no legal right to stay in the country (yet) anyway.

The posters for the SVP campaign frankly made it clear that they were fear mongering against people from the Balkans, "Ivan" and a German name not common in CH for good measure. Nobody in Germany is arguing to throw out other EU folks, if they live in Germany will they be trialed and punished just like a German. (There was a time where there were more Croatians living in Germany than in Croatia... and nobody made half the fuzz about "Yugos" as they made in CH).

The discussion in Germany is on refugees. Simply put: You cannot throw a criminal back into a war zone. International law outlaws it. So the discussion in Germany is:
- are countries like Morocco by now safe enough to send people back? They frankly aren't as safe as Germany, but they never have been and probably never will... so: Do we wait for eternity or when can refused refugees be sent back.
- if a refugee commits a crime, how bad does it need to be in order to guarantee that his application for asylum is turned down. Of course will you now jump at it and tell me that only angels deserve asylum, but well: Most refugees break some laws simply by coming over here, so the line needs to be clear. The guys who judge each case need to have a clear guidance what is acceptable and what not. So far was the rule: Any conviction for three years will cost you to get accepted into the country as a refugee. After Cologne is this now getting reduced, probably to one year. I am more than ok with this change, but it is a completely different topic from what is happening in Switzerland.

Fact is that about half the refugees who came and have so far been processed have been not accepted to stay mid-term. Many received short-term "Duldung", others are refused and basically on the jump seat to go home as soon as the international law permits it. They are sitting in shelters and will be moved back as soon as the EU agrees which country is safe and which not.
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  #45  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:36
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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1. Nobody in Germany is proposing deportation without a fair asylum process and a fair criminal trial.
Are you sure?

CSU-Forderung: Scheuer will Flüchtlinge ohne Prozess abschieben
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  #46  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:45
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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That article states it was a very rare case, and pending review. Did the deportation actually take place?
We are talking about the legal definition; what difference does it make if this person was finally deported or not

You could also look at this?
http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...ent.144446.xls
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  #47  
Old 14.01.2016, 16:55
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Beyond legal definition is the actual application of it, which you cite is abusive and goes against human rights. But have there ever been a case where it has in fact been used unjustly and infringed on anybody's human rights? Courts tends to judge leniently.

I believe there are cases where such a legal tool would be useful. The value of having the legal tool at disposal, versus the risk of injustice, doesn't strike me as such a particular crime against humanity, or travesty of justice. Do you really see this as a threat to civilized values, or are you exaggerating it for political effect?
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  #48  
Old 14.01.2016, 17:22
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Beyond legal definition is the actual application of it, which you cite is abusive and goes against human rights. But have there ever been a case where it has in fact been used unjustly and infringed on anybody's human rights? Courts tends to judge leniently.

I believe there are cases where such a legal tool would be useful. The value of having the legal tool at disposal, versus the risk of injustice, doesn't strike me as such a particular crime against humanity, or travesty of justice. Do you really see this as a threat to civilized values, or are you exaggerating it for political effect?
About "Courts tends to judge leniently."
You seem to have missed the key points?
The objective of this initiative and the earlier Ausschafungsinitiative (which is not law yet) is to remove the ability of courts to judge leniently.
Instead if they are passed and implemented then deportation will be mandatory for certain offences without any process of appeal.

You correctly stated the sentence to deport a 3rd generation Swiss was a very rare case. But this is under today's laws. It will become a regular event under the new proposals.

Certainly I do find it is cruel and unjust to send somebody to a country that, for example, they have never visited, probably are not fluent in the language simply because it was the original home of their grandparents.

It is not a question that "there are cases where such a legal tool would be useful"; the proposals are to make such deportation sentences mandatory!
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  #49  
Old 14.01.2016, 17:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

I'll verify for myself if that is truly the case, and if so, I do agree it is unjust to do so for minor offenses. Although I would not have a problem for those who are major repeat offenders, and are totally incorrigible criminals.
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Old 14.01.2016, 17:55
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I'll verify for myself if that is truly the case, and if so, I do agree it is unjust to do so for minor offenses. Although I would not have a problem for those who are major repeat offenders, and are totally incorrigible criminals.
Maybe you could have informed yourself before we got 50 posts into this thread? Might have improved the quality of the debate?
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Old 14.01.2016, 19:16
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Well, you said something that I am not sure if it is another one of your hyperboles or true. Particularly mandatory sentencing. Sentencing is at the discretion of judges, and I find it odd it would be taken away completely from judges. I'll get back to you on that.
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  #52  
Old 14.01.2016, 20:46
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Well, you said something that I am not sure if it is another one of your hyperboles or true. Particularly mandatory sentencing. Sentencing is at the discretion of judges, and I find it odd it would be taken away completely from judges. I'll get back to you on that.

You already posted once that you have been commenting in this thread without understanding the topic, I do not know why you need to repeat yourself?


According to Adrian Amstutz, a senior member of the House of Representatives for the SVP and of the initiative committee the objective of this initiative is to remove judges room to manoeuvre when sentencing!


Now I know that you comment on threads without understanding the topic of the thread then in future I will be in a better position to formulate my replies.
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Old 14.01.2016, 21:29
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

If you pay attention, you might notice that most of my post was asking a questions about the referendum. But it's unfortunate only you are responding to them, because I don't exactly find you credible. But maybe if you allow others to contribute to the thread, we may actually have something here worth reading.
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  #54  
Old 14.01.2016, 22:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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If you pay attention, you might notice that most of my post was asking a questions about the referendum. But it's unfortunate only you are responding to them, because I don't exactly find you credible. But maybe if you allow others to contribute to the thread, we may actually have something here worth reading.
Au contraire

LOL, You mean apart from the posts where you deny the theme.

About "if you allow others to contribute to the thread" WOW, I never knew I had such powers; must rush off and block some many other threads.

About "we may actually have something here worth reading" I fear our ambition outweighs our relative skills
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Old 15.01.2016, 10:30
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

Okay, so since you show little ability to carry on independent thinking, and can only think according to what you are told, here are some perspectives "printed in the newspapers" that pretty much echoes some of what I have been saying here about the EU:

Europe's migrant crisis is the CATALYST for collapse of EU, warns Luxembourg minister

EU will FALL amid terror and migrant strain - and it's starting in Germany, admits EU head
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Old 15.01.2016, 13:07
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Okay, so since you show little ability to carry on independent thinking, and can only think according to what you are told, here are some perspectives "printed in the newspapers" that pretty much echoes some of what I have been saying here about the EU:

Europe's migrant crisis is the CATALYST for collapse of EU, warns Luxembourg minister

EU will FALL amid terror and migrant strain - and it's starting in Germany, admits EU head




This thread is about Swiss deportation of criminals not the EU


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Old 16.01.2016, 14:10
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

This could have been avoided of the Federal Council and courts tried to be a little more respectful of the citizen decision. We all know people didn't vote the
"deportazion law" to see it "applied" like "only rapist and murderers will be deported... maybe".
This can be clearly seen from the stats, the SVP "show us" in the "flyer".
Wouldn't surprise me if someone get tired of the foreigners criminals...
I am reading and copying all this from the initiative "flyer".

Share of foreigners convicted of murder: 57,7%
Share of foreigners convicted of rape: 61.3%
Share of foreigners convicted of burglary: 73.0%

Consequences:
Share of foreigners in the swiss prisons: 73.0%

I don't hide I will probably vote "yes", however I will read the change before voting. So I know for sure what I am voting.
I myself know a lot of foreigners (at least here in Ticino) and most of the ones I know said the support the initiative.

Also, you can say whatever you want about the SVP, but they are VERY VERY VERY VERY GOOD when it comes to propaganda, they simply are the best, everybody remembers their propaganda, nobody remembers other's parties propaganda (I remember the "liberal green" party one, the one with the 92% of "no", because of how "inappropiate" the initiative was).

I am not here to do propaganda myself, but I think the citizen will vote "yes", good propaganda + immigration problem + Köln facts + unrespected initiative (at least from SVP POW) = people voting "yes"... I personally don't see how others party and the government will counter this.
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Old 16.01.2016, 23:25
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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This could have been avoided of the Federal Council and courts tried to be a little more respectful of the citizen decision. We all know people didn't vote the
"deportazion law" to see it "applied" like "only rapist and murderers will be deported... maybe".
This can be clearly seen from the stats, the SVP "show us" in the "flyer".
Wouldn't surprise me if someone get tired of the foreigners criminals...
I am reading and copying all this from the initiative "flyer".

Share of foreigners convicted of murder: 57,7%
Share of foreigners convicted of rape: 61.3%
Share of foreigners convicted of burglary: 73.0%

Consequences:
Share of foreigners in the swiss prisons: 73.0%

I don't hide I will probably vote "yes", however I will read the change before voting. So I know for sure what I am voting.
I myself know a lot of foreigners (at least here in Ticino) and most of the ones I know said the support the initiative.

Also, you can say whatever you want about the SVP, but they are VERY VERY VERY VERY GOOD when it comes to propaganda, they simply are the best, everybody remembers their propaganda, nobody remembers other's parties propaganda (I remember the "liberal green" party one, the one with the 92% of "no", because of how "inappropiate" the initiative was).

I am not here to do propaganda myself, but I think the citizen will vote "yes", good propaganda + immigration problem + Köln facts + unrespected initiative (at least from SVP POW) = people voting "yes"... I personally don't see how others party and the government will counter this.
According to Tagesanzeiger here 273 politicians have signed a document opposing this initiative.

About "Share of foreigners convicted of murder: 57,7%
Share of foreigners convicted of rape: 61.3%"

Sounds impressive but according to the Swiss bfs Amt for statistics these convictions are very small numbers in total.
In 2014 (the last year with full numbers) there were a total of 56 convictions for rape including 4 repeat offences (from earlier years) and 30 convictions for murder with no repeat offences.
So deporting all the foreigners convicted for murder and rape in 2014 would at best reduce the number of rapes per year by two.

The whole nation is voting for what exactly?
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Old 16.01.2016, 23:29
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The whole nation is voting for what exactly?
You already know, why are you asking?
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  #60  
Old 16.01.2016, 23:34
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You already know, why are you asking?
It is voting to stop 2 rapes per year and zero murders (murderers are not repeat offenders)?
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