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  #681  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The police needs to be allowed to do their job properly and judges really need to stop providing cushy solutions to people who simply refuse to be useful members of society. I don't care how the whole Carlos situation came about but a heck of a lot of people have had rubbish childhoods and difficulties and yet they are not all busy stabbing each other and vandalising property. Stop making excuses for these idiots. And somehow make it incredibly uncool to be in trouble with the police. Quite a lot of stretches of land need cleaning up, old people with gardens that need tending, make yourself useful, none of this "I want kickboxing lessons because that helps me channel my aggression" rubbish.
And that's the problem - Switzerland has no effective deterrent against these people - if we could only pass laws to outsource prisons to India that'd go a long way but you can be sure we'd have every civil rights person bleating...

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  #682  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:44
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Blick found plenty of foreigners who would vote for DSI if they could:
http://www.blick.ch/news/das-sagen-a...id4653049.html

Well, of course. Just because one is a foreigner, doesn't mean one is a criminal, let alone stupid and buries their head in the sand. DSI just makes plenty of sense to them.
Reading the article it seems that the people interviewed, like you, fail to understand the DSI.
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  #683  
Old 06.02.2016, 20:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Depends on your definition of "a lot".
According to the Amt for statistics only 12% of these are asylum seekers.

Before you start banging on about such criminals do please remember that many of them are there for simply breaking immigration laws; heinous crimes like doing paid work - asylum seekers are not permitted to work
You mean like this Iraqi taxi driver who raped a 10 year old boy in a locker room in a public swimming pool because he hand't had sex for 4 months ??? He came over on September 5th , already a taxi driver in Vienna and only committed the rape on December 2nd...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ex-months.html

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Police arrested him on the spot at the pool in Vienna, and during an interrogation, he told them that it was a 'sexual emergency' as he had not had sex in four months.

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  #684  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:12
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Depends on your definition of "a lot".
According to the Amt for statistics only 12% of these are asylum seekers.

Before you start banging on about such criminals do please remember that many of them are there for simply breaking immigration laws; heinous crimes like doing paid work - asylum seekers are not permitted to work
Interesting article in Tagesanzeiger today here (in German language) where they examine ten of the common statements about DSI and state whether they are correct or not.

Some points
Deportation only stops crimes by people who repeat their offences.
This is currently running around 20 - 26% of offenders.
Since only 19% of the criminals have residence permits and at worst 26% of them will be repeat offenders; then the DSI, at best, will reduce crime by 5% (26% of 19%).
And this assumes the people deported do not find their way back here to repeat crimes.

They also confirm that Parliament cannot moderate the wording of the initiative; it is so written as to prevent this.
If there is anything in the initiative which is not clear technically then Parliament is able to provide a better definition. However, Parliament and Federal Council would have to keep strictly to the text of the initiative.
For example the initiative states that a second offence in 10 years is grounds for deportation but it is not clearly defined when the 10 years start. For example, on the date of the initiative or when the law is implemented or?

Also some law professors believe the "hardship" clause approved by parliament as part of the AI will still be valid. The DSI does not say this clause must be cancelled.
A tactical error by the SVP who wrote the DSI before the AI was written into law.
This will mean there would be two conflicting laws.
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  #685  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:24
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The problem is simply that it won't work - to have people deported, they must be found guilty of a crime (interesting selection of eligible crimes, btw). The people the policeman and most of us are actually talking about seem to be completely impervious to getting booked. Meanwhile the "accidental criminals" have not idea how to get around the law, and since the justice system will be clogged up with foreigners with multiple traffic offences, it will not help one bit with the violent, organised criminals. Many of which already have a Swiss passport, by the way.
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And that's the problem - Switzerland has no effective deterrent against these people - if we could only pass laws outsource prisons to India that'd go a long way but you can be sure we'd have every civil rights person bleating...
I would not assume that DSI in itself will be solving this problem. It will be years before DSI will be implemented, and each court case can take years on its own. Rather, DSI is one only component of others that are needed.

The real situations occur at the street level in real time, meaning right now out there. There needs to be a change in two more areas; the entrance of foreigner criminals into the country, and in the law enforcement engagement of such foreigners. There may be two or ore initiatives needed to get there.

But what is DSI is important for is how this problem is to be perceived, politically and the general perception. Politically, the government needs to be directed to this problem. And this problem, as we see in the example, is structural. City governments really need to confront their own shortcomings and corruption.

One thing for sure, defeating DSI will take away pressure from truly dealing with this. Passing it is more likely to lead to more attention and address of the situation.
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  #686  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:26
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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You mean like this Iraqi who raped a 10 year old boy in a locker room in a public swimming pool because he hand't had sex for 4 months ??? He came over on September 5th , is a taxi driver in Vienna and only committed the rape on December 2nd...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ex-months.html
I was talking about Switzerland

I do not see the relevance of some lone nutter in another country.

There are plenty of Swiss who are paedophiles.
Swiss Child Protection Association claims that up to 25% of women and 10% of men in Switzerland have experienced sexual abuse during childhood.

The SVP classed this in DSI as a secondary offence; people can only be deported after a second offence.
I assume they were afraid of losing too many supporters if it was a first offence.
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  #687  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:31
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I was talking about Switzerland

I do not see the relevance of some lone nutter in another country.
As usual you fail to see the relevance of something that does not fit your agenda.
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  #688  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:37
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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As usual you fail to see the relevance of something that does not fit your agenda.
Well duh! you can say that about every body on the internet and most people outside of it.
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  #689  
Old 06.02.2016, 21:59
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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As usual you fail to see the relevance of something that does not fit your agenda.
So sorry I thought this thread was about DSI initiative in Switzerland not about asylum seekers in other countries?

DSI initiative is Switzerland only and asylum seekers are specifically excluded! Got it now?

It is not my agenda! It is the agenda of whoever wrote the initiative that your post did not fit.
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  #690  
Old 06.02.2016, 22:03
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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I would not assume that DSI in itself will be solving this problem. It will be years before DSI will be implemented, and each court case can take years on its own. Rather, DSI is one only component of others that are needed.

The real situations occur at the street level in real time, meaning right now out there. There needs to be a change in two more areas; the entrance of foreigner criminals into the country, and in the law enforcement engagement of such foreigners. There may be two or ore initiatives needed to get there.

But what is DSI is important for is how this problem is to be perceived, politically and the general perception. Politically, the government needs to be directed to this problem. And this problem, as we see in the example, is structural. City governments really need to confront their own shortcomings and corruption.

One thing for sure, defeating DSI will take away pressure from truly dealing with this. Passing it is more likely to lead to more attention and address of the situation.
"DSI is important for is how this problem...." How exactly'

It is about deporting criminals who have Swiss residence permits.

It has no connection to;
  • the entrance of foreigner criminals into the country
  • law enforcement engagement of such foreigners.

In fact it points people in an entirely different direction.

Just to be clear I have no issues with measures to control the entrance of foreigner criminals into the country, and the law enforcement engagement of such foreigners. But these have nothing to do with DSI; in fact, DSI is a diversion away from these topics.
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  #691  
Old 06.02.2016, 22:05
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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So sorry I thought this thread was about DSI initiative in Switzerland not about asylum seekers in other countries?
Ah so Switzerland voting no to the DSI has nothing to do with the EU and the countries that surround it? I rather thought you had spammed the board heavily to suggest we all needed to pay attention to some EU bilaterals...

You don't ever seem to tire of contradicting yourself do you ?
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Old 06.02.2016, 22:11
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Ah so Switzerland voting no to the DSI has nothing to do with the EU and the countries that surround it? I rather thought you had spammed the board heavily to suggest we all needed to pay attention to some EU bilaterals...

You don't ever seem to tire of contradicting yourself do you ?
No I "heavily spammed" the board suggesting we need to pay some attention to the European Convention on Human Rights (this is not a bilateral).
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  #693  
Old 06.02.2016, 22:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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No I "heavily spammed" the board suggesting we need to pay some attention to the European Convention on Human Rights (this is not a bilateral).
No, actually, you're heavily trolling the board pretending like its a conversation you don't understand. . You can make your point in a post or two if you are capable, if there is a point to make. The hundreds raises the noise to signal ratio and just gets filtered out. You may be the only one paying attention to your posts.
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Old 06.02.2016, 22:43
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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No I "heavily spammed" the board suggesting we need to pay some attention to the European Convention on Human Rights (this is not a bilateral).
Only 46 hits for posts with the word "bilateral" by marton...

http://www.englishforum.ch/search.php?searchid=15597289
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Old 06.02.2016, 22:47
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Only 46 hits for posts with the word "bilateral" by marton...

http://www.englishforum.ch/search.php?searchid=15597289
But not in this thread

Do you understand the concept that different threads have different topics
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Old 06.02.2016, 22:48
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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No, actually, you're heavily trolling the board pretending like its a conversation you don't understand. . You can make your point in a post or two if you are capable, if there is a point to make. The hundreds raises the noise to signal ratio and just gets filtered out. You may be the only one paying attention to your posts.
Mirror, Mirror on the wall.....
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Old 06.02.2016, 22:49
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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No I "heavily spammed" the board suggesting we need to pay some attention to the European Convention on Human Rights (this is not a bilateral).
"Board" not "thread" - damned by your own words - again.
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  #698  
Old 06.02.2016, 22:58
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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The problem is simply that it won't work - to have people deported, they must be found guilty of a crime (interesting selection of eligible crimes, btw). The people the policeman and most of us are actually talking about seem to be completely impervious to getting booked. Meanwhile the "accidental criminals" have not idea how to get around the law, and since the justice system will be clogged up with foreigners with multiple traffic offences, it will not help one bit with the violent, organised criminals. Many of which already have a Swiss passport, by the way.

The Swiss justice system is getting sillier every day, I hate people who speed in town as much as the next person who has ever thought of why we go 30-50 in urban areas and faster where there are no people expected. But do I want someone who drove 180 in an empty autobahn in bright sunshine to be treated worse than someone who has abused a child? No. And that is what is effectively happening right now.

The DSI would kick out people for speeding without actually causing an accident, but not for Female Genital Mutilation. I'm pretty sure we can all agree what is worse (if you disagree, then I invite you to educate yourself and/or acquire some brain cells and a sense of empathy). Speeding and killing someone is a different story, but they are already covered for manslaughter (I would say "with intent", as speeding means you felt it was ok to take the risk of having an accident by choosing to disregard the law).

The police needs to be allowed to do their job properly and judges really need to stop providing cushy solutions to people who simply refuse to be useful members of society. I don't care how the whole Carlos situation came about but a heck of a lot of people have had rubbish childhoods and difficulties and yet they are not all busy stabbing each other and vandalising property. Stop making excuses for these idiots. And somehow make it incredibly uncool to be in trouble with the police. Quite a lot of stretches of land need cleaning up, old people with gardens that need tending, make yourself useful, none of this "I want kickboxing lessons because that helps me channel my aggression" rubbish.

Teachers need to be given more tools to educate kids (not RAISE the little buggers) and parents must be prepared to do their part in proper parenting or face paying to send their kids to private schools. Because that's how it used to be in Switzerland, the only two reasons for a kid to go to a private school was either fabulously rich/constantly travelling parents or there was something wrong with you. Now a lot of Swiss people are looking for private solutions to avoid the difficulties in state schools caused by kids whose parents are doing a rubbish job, regardless of nationality.

Something like that. Overall - why can't people just be decent to each other? It feels better, if nothing else!
Careful. Notions of going back to a society in some point of time when things were actually running correctly might even get you labelled a nativist, or a Nazi even.

I'm not native here, but I really do wish the natives would grow a spine and become nativist in order to save this place. This "new world" scam is bullshit.
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Old 06.02.2016, 23:06
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Careful. Notions of going back to a society in some point of time when things were actually running correctly might even get you labelled a nativist, or a Nazi even.

I'm not native here, but I really do wish the natives would grow a spine and become nativist in order to save this place. This "new world" scam is bullshit.
Give the Swiss some credit - at least they are not German - no other country in Europe would accept what is going on there - there would be a revolution... just look at the sister website to this one - run by the same people to see the expat community in Germany is absolutely terrified:
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/...9-german-news/

Everyone knows what is coming - despite the efforts by the elite to turn peoples heads the other direction and people are going to vote - in so much as they can - against turning Europe into something resembling a suburb of Paris.


Good question from that forum - would love to hear Marton et al's answer to it : "Someone lets a rapist into your house, who do you blame the rapist or the person who let the rapist into your house ?"

Last edited by parnell; 06.02.2016 at 23:19.
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Old 06.02.2016, 23:28
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Re: Feb. 28th vote on enforced implementation of the deportation initiative

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Give the Swiss some credit - at least they are not German - no other country in Europe would accept what is going on there - there would be a revolution... just look at the sister website to this one - run by the same people to see the expat community in Germany is absolutely terrified:
http://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/...9-german-news/

Everyone knows what is coming - despite the efforts by the elite to turn peoples heads the other direction and people are going to vote - in so much as they can - against turning Europe into something resembling a suburb of Paris.
I do give the Swiss a lot of credit. In fact, I think they are leading a sanity in Europe they may not even be aware of. People do look to the Swiss as a role model.

I was just in Germany where there is an election campaign in Baden Wurttemberg, poster everywhere for SPD, CDU and AfD. SPD and CDU has a picture of their candidate. Poster for AfD says something like "Vote for......... after the Swiss Model". Made me smile. A problem here is that Switzerland also have their misguided elite.

The conversation will heat up as we go, and it really is unrealistic to ask people en masse to turn off their minds. The turnaround is slow, but hopefully the train crash is averted in time.



Any particular thread?
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