..and I'm for freedom of choice as to whether women wear it AND a unilateral, state imposed, Dictator style outright ban that says quite simply "you cannot wear a burkha which covers your face where you are in a job role where facial expression is considered an important function". And if, as people keep on pointing out, it's a totally voluntary, non-connected to religion just-because-she-loves-it choice of the woman to wear it, then there should as far as I can tell, be no complaints.

Why dont you ask a woman who wears a Burqa, next time you come across one?

But I think, if she says its her "free choice" then you would say, perhaps she is brainwashed or indoctrined or taught to do so from an early age.

Which infact brings down to a simple understanding... Unless a woman walks around naked or in minimal clothes, she has NOT made a Free and Conscious Choice.

Which infact would mean, all Women inherently want to flash their bodies and inclined to nudity.

Now are they... ?

How many veil wearing muslims have you talked to? There may be a small minority forced into wearing one there may be a large majority, I don't know. But because some people are naughty the nice people should have their freedom of choice taken away?

Maybe education is the key here and not a ban on what people can wear

And this is really the crunch of the "mixing the two". No-one can stop Muslim to turn a debate over the burqas into a debate for/against Islam, but they shouldn't do it if they have read their Qur'an instead of listening to the wrong Imam

I am not a Muslim and base my view on the right to choose and not to expect the state to make these decision for me and against someone religious or cultural belief based on populist misconceptions.

But I have.

Having spent time out in Pakistan,but the ones I managed to speak to (most won't let you or they only speak Pashtu or Urdu), were only wearing a scarf. Burkha-clad women will not talk to you.

I've met women in Iran as well who hated wearing a Chador but stated that did not have any choice.

The men in Pakistan were only too eager to talk. They wanted their own women covered up but thought that most western women were sluts and whores (their words, not mine).

Dervish, I find it quite revealing as to what you say on this thread about women and what you say in the off-topic threads about women and dating.

Women are funny, I can tell you that!!

My ex-gf, a "western" lady, didnt like my religion at all, but yet when I would say How about I convert to your Religion, would freak out!!

She insisted me on being a good muslim, even grow a beard?!! What the heck ?!!

Let's just ban people who shop at Walmart!
Now THAT'S disturbing and offensive !!

Shoppist!

Burka clad women not talking to you, isisnt that a sign?

Iran is a different kettle of fish, they have gone from extreme form of Modernism to extreme form of Fundamentalism.

Yes, thats unfortunately true... is the "local" bias. Just like in west, people perceive women wearing burkas are "Oppressed", people in my country think women wearing revealing clothes are "sluts and whores" and "asking for it"

I even know some guys who come to Europe with a mindset that they can just walk up to any girl and ask for sex and expect her to say yes!!!

Hahaha... Hey, Im trying to be "open minded"
I only say in jest... dont mean it.

Why not the opposite?

If you go back say 100 years and look at what people in Western countries thought about Islam you'll find they thought it was a very libertarian religion in regards to its attitude towards sex and nudity. This was partly fuelled by the pictures coming over from the nearest Islamic neighbour and long time ally: Turkey. In that counry, or so popular perception had it, people bathed naked in public baths and the rulers and other rich people had extensive harems and concubines and plenty of pretty slave girls of all colours and races and generally had a good time and sexual fulfilment. I once read a story (and I don't know how much truth there is in it) that a sultan or some other leader of some sort invited all the pretty girls of his town to swim in the baths but he didn't tell them that the clothes he gave them to wear were glued together with a water soluble glue so that it was just a question of time till they were all naked and he had a pretty good time watching them. Further libertine stories can be read in such works as "1001 nights" or even some of Mozart's operas.

That picture was probably as incorrect as the current day one is. But it's interesting to see how things change.

always worked for me.

I usually tell them that they have nice shoes first.

I can agree to that, but such part of history of "muslims" is long forgotten. Muslims even devised the modern way of Fermentation to get purified alcohol, Opium was also widely used. Muslim rulers of India had special Jewelled boxes to store their Opium etc.

Persian and Afghan women are very strongly inclined to song and cances, not many people would not know that. There is even a "Red Light District" in Lahore which was called Beauty Market, and historically it was actually used to "Breed" and "Teach" exceptionally beautiful women as consorts for the Aristocracy... and whats even more ironic is its right next to one of the walls of Badshahi Mosque

Uptil early 80s Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan were very liberal and seculer countries. There were bars, clubs casinos and a bustling night life. Till the onslaught of Oil Politics and pursuing wars and the mess they have created. Which made people seek refuge in Religion and was a fertile ground of Religious Extrimists to breed hatred towards west.

If muslims are free and at peace, they are strongly hedonistically inclined for some reason and seek Paradise on earth, which is what you referred to in your post. But close themselves and take refuge in religion if they feel their survival is at stake.

Which is whats happening now. Many muslims which were liberal and "open minded" have gone back to Conservative ways post 911, rather than moving away from Religion. And I think its gonna stay like that for a good while.

You dirty gits!!

Why didnt you tell me, it works

Interesting. The Chief Minister of the state of Kelantan in Malaysia, which has an elected Islamic govt. , will consider banning the covering of faces for security reasons. It is anyway not Islamic to cover the face, he says. I believe he is also the head of the Islamic Party of Malaysia, which controls 3 or 4 of the 13 states in Malaysia.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...902&sec=nation

Does seem strange as he also implemented separate queues for men and women, a no female hairdresser for men policy, etc.. But in the context of separating culture from religion, I can sort of follow his line of thought.

The interpretation of any religious scripture is open to debate. We see it is the West where the Roman Catholic opposes condom and homosexuality whilst the Anglican church is far more open. It should come as no surprise that a religion such as Islam has many different beliefs but I guess it is up to the people to decide what form they want to follow and by electing this minister they made their choice.

I would like to point out here that the women who wear these covering - well the ones I`ve spoken to about it ..... they realy do like wearing it! Underneath it they are wearing beautiful exotic modern designer clothing ...... but they just do not enjoy being leered at by strange men, and feel more secure with their coverings when in mixed company or out shopping.

And they are not "un-identifiable" .... believe it or not ...... they realy are quite individualised ....... their outfits have various finishings that distinguishes them. Blowed if I could figure out the differences .... but they greet each other by name! ...and are able to identify each other quite easily! Us westerners are not used to the subtleties of that type of dress.

I would far rather have that awful hair dye banned ..... the magenta red one, and over fat ladies should be banned from wearing lycra, especially in bright colours. Teenagers bare midrifs from their hipster jeans should be banned in winter ... they gonna cause themselves bodily harm for the future!

sorry to be pedantic but I don't think that is the case.

Fermentation makes alcohol and distillation purifies it and those are two separate processes. The process of fermentation is very old and we know the ancient assyrians and mesopotamiams had both beer and wine and possibly it is much older than that as primitive man must have discovered that fruit ferments during storage, and the trick of good storage is actually preventing rather than encouraging the fermentation. This was long before the beginning of Islam so you can't claim this as a Muslim invention.

Distillation, which is necessary to extract and purify alcohol and incease its concentration is also quite old as the mesopotamiamsn and ancient Greeks knew about distillation and made frequent use of it (roll on the Monty Python philospher song ...).

What the Arabs did was to provide a detailed documentation of the process and do some early scientific investigation of it. This is not the same as invention although it did lay the basis for improving the process.

Ofcourse, you are right, Alcohol has been there long before religions maybe. But I said "devised modern way" meaning what you said above. Sorry didnt clarify it.