Do you really need an example? Has it never occured to you that democracy my lead to abuse of individual rights? Wow.

Anyway. A charming young lady called Shania Twain wanted to buy a pretty house nearby. She wanted to make some alterations to the house (within municapal standards) but by communial vote was turned down. According to her, the alterations were within standards, and within the taste of the area, etc, etc. No reason was given for being turned down.

So here we have a situation where she may have been turned down by the whims of the local population. The sale was cancelled and she has since bought in Blonay.
Is this 100% fair?

Then why are you seeking Swiss citizenship? Or hold a Canadian passport? You best move back to Russia to be consistent with your statements.

Churchill once said, that democracy is the worst of all systems with he exception of all the others.

I do agree with the basic sentiment that some citizenship test would be good to demonstrate's one's ability to understand the process and hold an informed opinion.

However, such a system would fail because somebody would have to be in control of that test and could abuse their position by refusing voting rights to people who happened to hold opinions in conflict with their own.

So a certain number of stupid and primitive voters is something we have to live with and a price we have to pay so that the rest of us can hold our opinions freely.

It's not called Democracy, its Autocratic rule by the "Worthy" or in Plato's words Autocratic rule by Philosophers.

To which Aristotle argued "Who will guard the Guardians?"

There is no perfect democracy or Capitalism, just made belive mixes and matches.

If the alternations were according to municipal standards, it wouldn't have come to a vote.

After having lived in the same area as John Travolta, I imagine that the not-given-reason was perhaps simply that the community did not want a celebrity in it's midst.

I think that is 100% fair because it is up to the community to decide what sorts of changes they want made within the community - providing the additional infrastructure that most likely would be necessary in order to provide the security necessary not only for Shania Twain's residence but to the town in general due to the myriad issues that could arise.

I bet that if Shania Twain was nobody particular, she would have had no problem.

(BTW... John Travolta wound up getting voted out of his place after he spent a lot of money on it... better for Shania to find someplace welcoming her rather than someplace that did not want her)

I agree, it was a half-witted comment as it lead to confusion. No insult intended. By asking what planet are you on, I was wondering where in the Free World such political pressure on a company can not be expressed and ultimately noticed by Government, shareholders and the general public. I can't think of any Liberal market where there wouldn't be at least considered media debate but plenty of Repressive regimes where the will of the people is completely disregarded for political / financial advantage.

Despite all the populist posters and Blick headline one reads I really think the Swiss populace as a whole is rather sensible. They do NOT just follow their party line, they also do NOT just follow posters and ads nor do they automatically follow the Federal Counsillors advice. This has been proven again and again by political scientists and confirms for me that our system may be slow, we may have idiots voting, but overall the peoples vote is extremely consistent and sensible. We do not shun discussions (Minarett, disband the army, no weapon exports) and have proven that business is not #1 in Switzerland, despite our image abroad. So all pessimism aside, I have great confidence in our slow, ineffective system to represent the views of the majority of this country.

It is easy to go after the little guy and let the bigger guy get off the hook.

Maybe the Swiss are taking the public's eye of the ball i.e. Tinner and the nuclear mess up.

Not that I wouldn't vote to stop the sale of arms. If the government want to sell arms then they will or will pay another country as the US did in the Arms Contra affair. I guess that this way the government gets to decide who the company gets to sell the arms to. Unless of course there are friends in the government - Remember Bolcher and the sale of arms to South Africa?

The company could always switch to making something else-armoured cars for private use, security etc. Or do what Blocher was wanted to do with the refugee centers-move them overseas, where they no longer come under Swiss juridiction.

I don't really see this that this cmpany will stop manufacture, they will just move abroad- the problem is where?

Yes, I suppose it is the best humanity has come up with so far.

It is interesting to see how democracy is interpreted in different countries though. Switzerland's very literal interpretation (everyone votes on everything) has its advantages and disadvantages as has been discussed. While in the UK, the belief that you vote for a particular candidate who will represent your views also has its benefits and flaws.

I found it endlessly interesting to debate though.

I don't agree. The Swiss really aren't really fazed by celebrities. As long as they follow the rules, celebrities will be left alone.

Sounds good to me - I certainly wouldn't want someone
like that lowering the tone of my neighbourhood.


Let Phil Collins suffer her- at least he deserves it.
.

Same principles.

To me, only people proven worthy should be allowed to run the country through voting. They have to have a stake in it. Either through ownership of land, higher education or service to the country (army, firefighters etc).

Otherwise you will have soap watching, walmart shopping, high school dropouts running the country.

I've had the same idea once...that eligible voters are given a scoring (multiplier) system based on ownership of property, employment, qualification, income, etc.

But I can also see the flaws - it may lead to elitism or, that these 'qualifications' may not equip you to make better decisions.
It is always a pity though, that 20% of the population generally carries 80% of the tax burden of most countries, yet, everybody has an equal say. I can understand where the unhappiness may come from.

Hardly a new idea. It was done a long time ago; lasted a long time, too...
.

Actually, I'm gonna be on your side here, although I'm not gonna argue about the arms...
I do admire the active democracy in Switzerland, but I agree, surely there have been times where it should just have been decided by the parliament.
My favorite example of course, in 1971, when men voted about if women should get voting rights, and voted no...

Restricting the sell of arms by company's such as Pilatus will only encourage countries to purchase weapons from 'rogue' states increasing the revenue that they generate and strengthening regimes that care little for democracy and human rights.

Where is the logic in that?

By voting in a Parliament and by electing government officials we already have democracy, is there really a need for issues like this to go to the vote where it is often the people with strong views either way that tend to campaign the hardest to get the vote that they want.

If democracy carries on in this way the minority still control the majority of the decisions being made.

Good point. North Korea desperately needs cash and will sell anything.

The fact that somebody has money, income or qualifications says little about their maturity. On the contrary, such people are often out of touch and live aloof of Joe Public and his needs and concerns. Giving more weight to the opinions of such people will not lead to better government.

If there is to be a test I would prefer it to be on the basis of service to the public and country, for example based on doing some time in community service or charitable work. This might also get some of the spoilt kids from rich families to see some of society's problems.

While we're at it.... UAE to buy 25 Pilatus Turboprop for pilot training...Tages Anzeiger article in German..