This immigration issue is everywhere...what are your thoughts?

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/front/d...=1179915948000

in according with the linking guidelines:

I am always reading about deportations from switzerland. I have never seen any real numbers. Is it tens, hundreds or thousands a year? I personally think it will be very low - my neighbour works for the police and he tells me it is a very hard process to actually deport people.
The myriad of rules and quotas must be there for a reason - if you change rules based on every individual deportation, then these will be hard to implement.
I personally think Switzerland (for its size) has done more than enough in opening its doors to asylum seekers (just look around you). What is needed now is a period of at least a generation to assimulate and educate the current intake. Otherwise switzerland will not be swiss anymore. This is just my view.

I think this quote from the article sums up my feelings pretty well.

"I don't think the Swiss are xenophobic but they don't agree with [asylum] abuse," Amnesty's refugee coordinator Denise Graf told swissinfo at the time.

Again, considering the increase in crime, unemployment, social welfare abuse, and population increase that can be attributed to immigration, I'm surprised it took the Swiss this long to get fed up and say enough is enough.

Charity is all well and good provided it doesn't negatively impact yourself, or those close to you as far as I'm concerned. I wonder how many of those who are critical of Switzerland's immigration policies would let a less fortunate stranger occupy a spare room in their home, paying for their food and providing a monthly sum comparable to that earned by a lower middle class worker working full time?

Excuse me? I just looked around, and didn't see any. Opening its doors? Been keeping up with local politics?

No, of course, when a subject is framed like that, there can only be one answer. Does that mean that there are people that put their hands up and say "I support abuse of the system"? Of course not. However, mentioning that people don't like abuse is nothing more than an attempt to allude to abuse without actually backing that up with anything. The SVP have successfully played that card every single time.

Wow - attributed by whom? You? Is that your own opinion, or "facts" backed up by right-wing groups? Immigration causing unemployment? Population increase? Are you serious?

[ We pay taxes for that to be done because there are a lot more tax payers than there are refugees (at least those that actually make it here). If the numbers were equal, then it would probably be more efficient for each member of the population to house one, and yes, if the situation were like that, I would do it. People around the world have done exactly that in times of warfare and extreme hardship.

I can see this thread is going to go the same way that they usually do. People with right-wing views will jump on the thread. After a while an actual refugee will arrive and point out how things have been from their own experience, and the right-wing posters will remain strangely silent.

Well it might be rather predictable, but I guess it's the only political process we have on the forum. Yawn.

Yep - the real problem is with economic migrants who abuse asylum laws for their own benefit. Just about every country in Europe offers a legal way to immigrate.

If you don't meet the immigration criteria of your desired country then don't expect that you have any right to go and live in that country - regardless of the fact that you might not have a great outlook in your country of origin. It's not the responsibility of other countries to look after the citizens of countries with poor economies.


Of course, if you start talking about immigration it doesn't help that some will immediately shout 'racism' or suchlike. In my opinion, the Swiss have a pretty sensible policy and just because they actually enforce it properly doesn't make them any more 'racist' than anywhere else.

Yeah, a 25% foreign population is nothing. 1 in 4 is barely noticable.

Yes, quite serious. It's a very complicated concept. Immigrants add to the population of a country. For example, x immigrants arrive. The population increases by x. I won't go into the math of how the population increases even more when the original two have children so as to keep it as simple as possible.

As far as unemployment, a recent issue of Weltwoche (Sorry, is that a right-wing source?) documented that foreigners from eastern countries recieve far, far more social aid than either EU or Swiss citizens. Here's the article, its in german.

http://www.weltwoche.ch/artikel/?Ass...&CategoryID=66

I guarantee that you can find a needy person, from Switzerland or elsewhere if you prefer, that you could house. Every little bit makes a difference, you know. I'll even help you look.

In my experience, they usually have a few people who think Switzerland can do no right, oftentimes these people are from countries with absolutely abysmal records of integration and racial issues, and generally end with someone who doesn't have any real arguments calling someone who is decidedly left-wing "right-wing".

Ah, immigration.

Way I see it (and I'm just me), a small number of people who are up to no good seem to get in and get away with a lot, a larger number of people who need help get turned away because of the actions of those few (who never seem to get deported?).
What seems to cloud the issue is people mixing immigration and asylum. People who are in need of asylum have every right to go somewhere else and ask for help (and get it, too).
People who are migrating for purely economic reasons (me - I couldn't find a post-doc job at home) shouldn't necessarily expect the right to just move to a country and expect everything. That's why I went through the process of geting a visa, etc. It gives the country the chance to ask 'Am I needed, will I help the economy, would the job be better off going to someone already here?, etc.
However, when people claim asylum when what they're actually doing is migrating for purely financial reasons, that's abuse of the system. How many people are actually doing this - I have no idea, so I'm not commenting on how it affects Switzerland, just saying that it is possible to criticise people abusing the asylum system and their actions making it harder for people who really need help.
F'rinstance, because of abuse of the system back in the UK, they decided to tighten things up a bit and sent a load of people home to Zimbabwe, most of whom have disappeared. If there wasn't so much abuse, then there wouldn't have been any pressure to get rid of people and those poor buggers wouldn't have been sent back.

Of course, most are scroungers. Send the buggers back or there'll be rivers of blood...

Increasingly so with each edition. Used to be a good current affairs magazine. Now... well...

Great to know we're a caring community. There's always a place for the desperate in my appt. Can't afford to pay them but they're welcome to use what they need to escape persecution. Luckily for me, govt. agencies do a better job than I ever could, so I'm happy to pay that part of my taxes to subsidise their help. Oh, I forgot, they're all scroungers. Send the buggers back...

This appears to be an attempt to misquote and twist what I said - here's the quote, including the comment I was replying to:

The original comment was concerning asylum seekers, NOT immigrants/foreigners. Or are you really saying we have a 25% asylum seeker population? If not, then why did you suddenly shift the subject like that? An attempt to mislead?

My point is that we are not "surrounded" by asylum seekers as jbrady was trying to say.

Again, sarcastic comment not necessary. The point I was trying to make was that population growth is not a problem for us, in fact we have the opposite problem. As with most developed countries our population growth is almost zero and in danger of shrinking. But go ahead - we can pretend that immigration is causing (supposedly unwanted) population growth if we like. If that's the point you were trying to make, it's certainly an interesting one (since the facts don't bear it out).

Ah, so now it's the ones from "eastern countries". Are these the asylum seekers or the ones who were born here? It's just that I thought we were talking about asylum seekers, not economic migrants, or the children of former migrants. As for these people (the "eastern" ones), it's no surprise that they have a higher rate of unemployment, and we all know why! (hint: the answer is not that they don't want to work).

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm repeating myself, but I have to say this again - I was referring to asylum seekers. I see my point was either totally lost or wilfully ignored in an attempt to "score points"

Well let's go ahead and judge people on their opinions before they even arrive. In fact - let's cast aspersions based on the track records of the governments from the countries in which they happened to be born in. After all, if they come from countries with such terrible records, who are they to know anything, have their own opinions or call anyone else "right-wing". Do you propose that we ignore the opinion of anyone who comes from such a country? If so, I suspect that would include pretty much exclude all of us (yourself included).

I have no problem with you quoting me, but please don't quote me out of context or suddenly change the subject. I don't think it's clever, I think it's dishonest.

Indeed for the "acceptable" foreigner, Switzerland has open doors.

Where's the thread with the chap in the US hoping to be reunited with his wife and child here but being assylum seekers (wife and child) they have no rights in Switzerland?

We can either have an actual discussion about the topic, or you can put my words in my mouth. My point is simply that Switzerland has done an awful lot, considering its size, for the less fortunate around the world, and they are increasingly being taken advantage of when it comes to their generosity. Switzerland has a huge amount of foreigners as it is, far more than many other countries, and they do need time to integrate.

Would you also like to argue that increased immigration doesn't cause an increase in population?

there are, statistically, 500'000 Swissies living abroad.

so from 7 million or so, 20% are foreign. This actually does not count assylum seekers IIRC - so "illegal" immigraton from an official standpoint causes no increase in population.

By the way, I'm not against assylum seekers but I wonder how many arrive by flights into this landlocked country?

So, you've never seen one of the 350,000 Ex-Yugoslavians in Switzerland? Most of them came as asylum seekers. You maintained that you've never seen any, and I'm the one being dishonest?

No, we are not, I would agree with you. I do think that Switzerland has been welcoming to foreigners, which is why I mentioned the 1 in 4 statistic.


As far as sarcasm, if you hadn't responded with your right-wing "yawn" comment I probably wouldn't have responded in kind. I suppose the large increase in traffic, apartment scarcity, building boom, and the need to build a new highway around Zurich aren't enough proof of an increase in population? Or that Switzerland has increased its population by 1 million since 1990? What exactly isn't borne out by facts?


Most asylum seekers are from Eastern Europe. As far as the "children of former migrants", I know more than one former-Yugoslav that went from asylum seeker to Swiss citizen in a span of 15 years. Not a short time to be sure, but certainly possible for anyone who wants it.


Well, that only belongs in the Complaint Corner, now doesn't it? And of course, only when applied to one country in particular.

How is this accurate, when the largest group of foreigners in Switzerland is what I would imagine are "bad" foreigners, or people from former Yugoslavia?

From what I understand, a good deal come from Italy, smuggled in trucks, on foot, etc. I think this route is called the "Amiesenweg".

No we certainly wouldn't be doing anything like that...

You are absolutely right. Switzerland has done an awful amount of things for people in other countries. As far as humanitarian activities it is one of the world leaders. But there's a very important distinction - this generosity stops as soon as we talk about helping people WITHIN our borders. The thing is, once they arrive it's a bit different than simply throwing money at charity in a foreign country.

Switzerland has a huge amount of foreigners because it denies so many of them citizenship. If you rephrased that to "foreign-born" residents I think you'd find that the comparison to other countries doesn't come up quite the same. And yes - they do need time to integrate, but this is another discussion.

But hang on again - weren't we discussing asylum seekers and not immigrants? I thought I already made that point. What is the percentage asylum seekers accepted each year with respect to the total population?

I thought I already pointed out that we don't have a problem here, so I'm curious as to why you are pushing this point with another poster.

According to the wikipedia:

Ok - I guess I have to admit you are right here. In 2000-2006 we had a massive increase of 0.05% in comparison with 80's, due to immigration. However, an overall growth rate of 0.7% is far too low to keep up with (ahem..) economic growth. Hence - we actually need more people.

Considering Switzerland's birth rate (according to the same article) is a staggeringly low 1.43 births per woman, I find it hard to figure out how else the size of the population could be maintained. I know you wanted to give me a very simply explanation about population growth in your earlier post, but I'm afraid it must have just been too complicated, because I still don't understand this point.

So maybe you can tell me, exactly what is this population growth problem from immigration that you were talking about? Oh I'm sorry, or were we talking about asylum seekers?

"acceptable" foreigners are from EU countries.

yes, there are a lot of people from the former Yugoslavia - they've replaced the Italians who for a long time were not, for example, permitted to eat in Swiss restaurants.

I know my missus' [Italian] great-uncle worked near Chur and was treated like shit. That's post-war Switzerland btw.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure how this works. You respond to me with sarcasm, I respond in kind, you ask me to stop being sarcastic, I do so, and then you yet again respond with more sarcasm. It's a little much to keep up with. Can I be sarcastic too, or is that just an administrator privilege?

Again, the population increased by 1 million, from 17 years ago. That's a large increase for a country the size of a small US state. And, a doubling of the population in less than a century would certainly be a large problem in such a small country. The population increase is already showing signs in housing and transportation. I guess we can disagree?

I've to say PD that on this topic, you sound about as left-wing as Blocher mate...

Incidentally, my mum came to Switzerland from Italy in the 50's and she says it was hard but she never complained about it and quickly learned the language and adapted (minimal education and working as a diner lady in Neuchatel at first, office clerk then) to life in a small Swiss-French town. She met my (Swiss) dad there.

Admittedly, the left/right spectrum seems to get a little muddled in the translation from the US to Europe. I'm to the left there, and probably to the center here.