Hello

I've just returned from a holiday driving around the Alps and it's been suggested I ask on here for advice about what happened whilst in Switzerland.

A friend and I (2 cars) were stopped by an unmarked car for speeding on the motorway (127km/h in a 100km/h restricted section) and asking us to follow them to the station, the police kept us waiting for 5 hours and would not let us go without paying a bond of 2500 Swiss Francs each. They said there had been complaints that we were not obeying speed limits, road markings, etc. and that the judge would decide what to do based upon whether witnesses come forward.

I belong to a Lotus car club has done the same Alpine tour every year since 1999 (this was my 4th in successive years) without any history of issues. Instead, it appears that we are being tarred with the same brush as those regularly rampaging through Europe on 'Cannonball/Gumball' - type events for people with more money than sense. Other than exceeding the motorway speed limit, we didn't do anything wrong.

- Does anyone have any advice as to what to do other than sit and wait for the 'verdict' as to our perceived guilt?

- Is it worth contacting anyone to put our case forward?

- In relation to the speeding, what sort of fine /sanction should we expect?

Thanks for your help
Rob

I should add that in 20+ years of driving, I've only ever had 3 points on an otherwise clean driving licence

To be honest, I would have thought you'd receive a fine and lose your license for 1 month (in Switzerland)

But from the begining of 2007 the penalties became more severe...so....

anyway you live in the UK so it'd not really going to cause too many problems for you - is it?

Can you clarify a few points.

On a speeding offence an allowance is made from the actual speed recorded. You were 27 km/h over the limit but was this with or without the allowance ?

Do you agree you were speeding ?

Which Kanton were you in ?

You say that other complaints were made about your conduct. Do you know how many ?

This was a Lotus car club event so presumably there were others also travelling the same route at the same time ? (I ask this because you mentioned Cannonball/Gumbball events which have earned a very bad reputation and this year ended in a fatal accident).

As this clearly involves more than just a speeding offence I think the procedure will be (someone correct me on this if I’m wrong) that a judge will review any evidence collected by the police and make a decision. You will be notified and at that point you can either accept it or have the opportunity to contest it.

I'm sure I saw something about this in the papers recently <unties the carefully bundled stack of old newspapers - you don't know how painful this is for a swiss resident>

From the first in the pile, Zürich's Tages Anzeiger of Thursday 13th September:

British racers in the Surselva
Sedrun. - On Wednesday two british Lotus Elise drivers took part in a dangerous private race. The police are searching for the two drivers who apparently belonged to a group of 50 Lotus drivers who were on their way from Wallis/Valais to Engadin.

I can't give advice on the speeding and fine issues but at least you can see why you were being targeted. Maybe you should contact the organizers of the tour and see if they can identify the wannabe gumballers in the club.

The police are very good at assessing the likely level of any fine that will be applied.
When I had an accident the police officers were discussing which judge was likely to be hearing the case before they determined the size of my 'deposit'. Therefore expect to be fined up to 2500 Swiss Francs each.

What did you say in your statement to the police as this will be presented in court?

[Incidentally, I presume you're not this guy.]

Here's another take on it (in German). Sounds like you were allegedly having fun....tsk tsk.

If no witnesses come forwards, you'll probably be fined. You might also find 50 Elises entering the country will be turned away in future.

So you were not racing? Does anyone have onboard video? Any overtaking in tunnels (including simply crossing the line) or other silliness? There are many traffic cameras to catch you doing this.

UK Robert, in case you didn't spot it, the 2 cars in that article were black and green Elise Sports with british plates.

We seem to have our own brand of cretin just outside Zürich, drives a yellow Elise:
and .

[no, I'm not trying to label all Lotus drivers, it's just something I came across while searching]

It would be interesting to know if the clubs that organise these events take any action against their members, like expulsion, if they bring the event into disrepute or do they stand around the bar having a laugh about it ?

This years Gumball Rally ended with two local people being killed. See the section of this article about the 2007 event - Gumball_3000

The news article is sensationalist to say the least and to liken our tour with the likes of Cannonball is completely unfair and innappropriate

We'd spent that morning at the garage, so by the time we were stopped for speeding (yes, it was a corrected 127km/h from an allegedly recorded 135), the rest of our party were already at our hotel for the night. The road we'd taken wasn't part of the 'official' route that day, but it's likely ours weren't the only Lotuses to take it.

I told the police the truth in that we drove within the speed limits for the roads and that I mistakenly thought the motorway speed limit in Switzerland was 130km/h, i.e. the same as France.

Incidentally we were flashed to pull over immediately as the limit dropped to 100km/h on one of the twistier sections of the motorway. No crossing of solid white lines or other indiscretions, but alas no video to prove it

I should add that a Swiss motorcyclist that we'd overtaken some hours earlier had complained (and we saw him in the car park, then going in to be interviewed), so it's likely we were being followed by the police, waiting for us to breach a speed limit or commit some other driving offence. We'd overtaken the motorcyclist in question on a clear, open stretch of road but it was clear that he didn't like it when we subsequently stopped at a road works traffic light and he started ranting, raving and violently shaking his fist at my friend. Once the lights changed, he (the motorcyclist) went shooting off at high speed, overtaking half a dozen other cars over a solid white line! Whatever he said, I assume it isn't admissable without evidence to back it up?

Unfair, but the swiss have a policy of on size fits all, unfortunately. Even if they were waiting for you it's still legal for them to do so.

Pay the fine and walk away, counting yourself lucky you didn't get banged up.

Saying that I did read somewhere a guy ended up with a 21,000chf fine for repeated offenses which was then linked to his wage.

So also thank your lucky stars you don't live here!

Just one question. Did you notice the speed limit sign saying 100? If so were you in the process of slowing down when you were stopped? And to your comment about no video, you can bet your bottom dollar the police have one...

When you first posted here you were seeking advice but if our members are to give you the benefit of their knowledge then tell the whole story. In your original posting you said there had been some complaints but you did not mention that a motorcyilst was attending the police station to give evidence against you, so this is clearly going to be more than just a speeding offence. Perhaps the heading for this tread should have been Stopped for Speeding and Other Offences.

I’m not conversant with the finer points of Swiss law, but it may well be that the evidence of the motorcycilst is sufficient to warrant a charge against you. There was not an accident so he has no motif such as seeking compensation for damage and therefore could be considered as an independent witness. What you are saying is that he apparently selected you at random and decided to press charges without any reason. Sorry, but that's not very convincing.

In your first post you mentions complaints, so presumably there could be more. At this stage you can only wait to see what the investigating judge decides and then get a lawyer if you feel that you can offer a defence which might have chance of success.

As for associating your event with the likes of the Guimball and others I’m afraid this is inevitable as there are many events involving high powered cars that come through the Alps causing complaints and they have created a certain reputation for themselves which is entirely of their own making. Indeed, it would seem from the reports that two members of your club have added to this.

You are being a bit harsh here.

To be entirely honest the evidence of the motorcyclist is not likely to be that powerful in court. You need to ask the question why did he follow for hours? This is rather unusual behaviour. And if there is a denial of other offences then it is simply his word against theirs and the burden of proof (contrary to popular belief) is on the prosecution. To the newspaper story of two racers in Switzerland, there is no evidence that it was one of the group, it could just have easily been two independent idiots who decided to use parts of Switzerland as a race track. As the OP says sensationalized.

All that can be done at this time is to wait and see what the result of the police investigation is. There is no certainty that they will do anything other than press charges for speeding and that is likely to be considerably less expensive than SFr. 2.5K.

One thing to note though, under the new traffic laws it is now possible to press a case in an EU country for an offence that occurred in Switzerland, so these things need to be taken much more seriously than just a few months ago...

Did he follow for hours or was he asked to attend the police station to give a statement and arrived during the 5 hours they were detained ?

I don't see how he could be asked to attend - given there are plenty of lotuses on the road and it is unlikely in the extreme that he went off to the next police station to complain about foreign registed cars and remembered the registration details and the police then found them. But true there is no proof that he followed for hours.

You mean we're not the only country in the world where one is considered guilty under proven innocent?

I just knew you would pick up on that. Should have written right Shorrick after it

The incident with the motorcyclist was around an hour before we were stopped and we did not see him again in the meantime. I'm guessing that he called the police and he was asked to come into the station to give a statement, which is when we saw him.

I did not mention the motorcyclist initially because (according to the Police), his complaint was NOT the reason why we were stopped. Sorry for any confusion.

As for any grouped association with Gumball or Cannonball type events, there is one vital distinction: those are defined as point to point 'road races' with locations only disclosed at the start of each day. With our type of tour, we follow the examples that car clubs have been running for years, publishing a suggested route book in advance and limiting each day's drive to a maximum of around 6 hours (calculated via route planner) over 10+ hours, with options to take shortcuts as you wish and absolutely no notion of timing or placings. Success is usually measured by having had a nice (uneventful) drive, plenty of photo stops, a nice lunch and a good time at the hotel.

As I said in my first post, we've never had trouble before - if the locals pay any attention, it's always a wave or a thumbs up as opposed to anything negative.

...other than the article linked above which discussed two of the people, presumably on the same event as you, involved in illegal road racing...

It would seem likely that the police had seen, or were aware of, this article, and as such you and your friend were targetted as being "part of the same group". It's really not that big a leap mentally from "group of car enthusiasts" to "car enthusiasts involved in illegal street racing" (as in the article above) to "gumball rally where people died this year."