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Old 06.03.2012, 11:01
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lane_splitting#Safety

Arguments on both sides, draw the conclusion that fits you. I would add references to my arguments 1 by 1 if I had the time...
You seem to have plenty of time to construct numerous rants but you don't have the time to construct one well-supported post? Maybe you should just stop now while you think you're winning an internet argument.
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  #42  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:05
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

I don't see how anyone can object to this, of course filtering should be allowed for bikes.
It reduces congestion because the bikes will be using an otherwise unoccupied piece of road and freeing up a piece of road that they would have been occupying.

The law needs some clarity, as filtering in creeping traffic should also be allowed, not just static traffic. For example the huge queues heading toward the Gotthard tunnel, which is moving of a fashion.

There is an element of risk to the rider, but sensible speeds and rider/driver training should negate a lot of this.

That said, I used to commute by bike from Reading to Windsor for a good while by bike along the M4, and saw a number of bikes taken out by cars. Of course that was extreme conditions of quite often 15 mile queues and thousands of cars.

Last edited by 17clarence; 06.03.2012 at 11:06. Reason: doh!
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  #43  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:10
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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You can't be serious in drawing the conclusion that if thousands of bikers are able to halt paris if occupying full lane spots, then the same thousands of bikers would not do the same waving through traffic. I mean PLEASE do not INSULT our intelligence.
I'm not going to bother to reply to that.

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That was a demonstration. Take any demonstration -even pedestrians - and traffic will be brought to a halt.
It was a demonstration on the consequences of following a proposed law. As for a pedestrian demonstration comparison, it would be more like if in such demonstration the pedestrians would keep to their own pedestrian areas instead of taking it to the road (well, except for the metro block...).

Imagine if now they forbid people to walk parallel in zebra crossings: everybody would have to cross the road in a perfect queue. Pedestrians would need a longer time to cross, and cars would have to wait longer for the crossing to clear. Why not arrange a "demonstration" where everybody would comply with this proposal, and analise its real-life effects on traffic? Because that is what's probably missing in today's desk-sitting law makers.

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Additionally if you take a look at that photo one can clearly see that vans stopped across the road are holding up traffic, because some bikers decided it is funny to demonstrate and prevent people from getting to where they were headed to in time. This is backed up by the article "There, all incoming traffic was stopped by the police to let all the bikers in."
Police is standard in any demonstration. Most likely they unilaterally decided to cut the traffic, for safety purposes.

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how about reading the full article "Afterwards, a large number of bikes went and blocked a metro station, since public transport is not a viable solution to the congested traffic problems."

Now how is that constructive in any way???? Again NO RESPECT to anyone!!! How did a people who take the metro offend these bikers so that they decided to limit their freedom of movement by blocking that station. And then when it comes to vote they expect the same people to have sympathy with their cause???
Personally I would not see myself doing the metro block, however in my opinion it has a similar effect a metro-personnel strike, where unsuspected people get caught between. I guess the message they wanted to pass is that they have to somehow get to work and the public transport is not developed enough to absorb all bikers (which if converted to drivers would cause even more congestion).
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  #44  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:21
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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"st2lemans groans.."

Can you give a proper reason you find blocking a metro station useful or constructive before groaning???? If not I am afraid you're just frustrated...
I would assume he's groaning at you because you appear to be generalizing against all bikers based on your preconceptions and the actions of a few. At least, that's one reason I'm considering using when I red rep you in a second.
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  #45  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:28
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Lugano, and it's always been the norm here (22 years here).

Same in Grigioni.

Tom
Still illegal. Specifically covered in the Swiss Highway Code, which is Law throughout CH.
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  #46  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:38
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Still illegal. Specifically covered in the Swiss Highway Code, which is Law throughout CH.
You should inform the police because they don't seem to care at all.
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Old 06.03.2012, 11:41
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Still illegal. Specifically covered in the Swiss Highway Code, which is Law throughout CH.
Just because it's law does not make it a) right or b) not subject to review. Which why this thread was started - because time and time again the law has proven contrary to common sense. If a law can be universally ignored with little or no consequence to the general public, shouldnt it be reviewed?
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Old 06.03.2012, 11:52
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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I don't see how anyone can object to this, of course filtering should be allowed for bikes.
Unfortunately - and I speak as a rider who has done thousands of pressurised miles, splitting traffic, when I was out in LaLaLand - there will always be some dickhead driver who thinks that because they're in slow moving traffic, they don't have to worry about their lane position and will be hogging one side or the other, and will end up having their car scraped or mirror banged.

It is these people who will be the objectors, blaming others for their own short-comings.
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  #49  
Old 06.03.2012, 11:52
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Just because it's law does not make it a) right or b) not subject to review. Which why this thread was started - because time and time again the law has proven contrary to common sense. If a law can be universally ignored with little or no consequence to the general public, shouldnt it be reviewed?
I believe was responding not to the concept of the initiative, but rather to st2lemans and others who've said that it's not illegal in Ticino (different from not enforced).
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:02
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Unfortunately - and I speak as a rider who has done thousands of pressurised miles, splitting traffic, when I was out in LaLaLand - there will always be some dickhead driver who thinks that because they're in slow moving traffic, they don't have to worry about their lane position and will be hogging one side or the other, and will end up having their car scraped or mirror banged.

It is these people who will be the objectors, blaming others for their own short-comings.
And it's not like the Swiss seem to lack something known as 'lane discipline'. I'm amazed there aren't more accidents here when I'm constantly seeing cars driving down the road or on the autostrada straddling two lanes or drifting back and forth significantly across the lane dividers.
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  #51  
Old 06.03.2012, 12:08
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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If a two-wheel rider has the discomfort of sometimes inclement weather and increased vulnerability, then there has to be advantages, and the ability to get through traffic and shorten journey times, is a big one.
Sorry, I don't follow that one. You should get preferential treatment because you choose to ride your two-wheeler in inclement weather?

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In the case of you pulling out of a parking space, they do have the right to be angry, as they have the right of way, not you!
But there are times when you pull out of a spot, it is all clear when you start, and by the time you finish and put the car in drive someone has come up behind you or is approaching and must slow down. Especially when someone has just come around a corner and are all of a sudden there. Those are the cases I speak of, not pulling out and cutting someone off.

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I don't see how anyone can object to this, of course filtering should be allowed for bikes.
It reduces congestion because the bikes will be using an otherwise unoccupied piece of road and freeing up a piece of road that they would have been occupying.
Sorry, don't follow this line of reasoning, either. So once they leave this occupied space in the road that they are so kindly freeing up, they no longer occupy any piece of road? I need to go back to my physics and thermodynamics professors and ask again about convervation of matter.
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  #52  
Old 06.03.2012, 12:23
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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If a two-wheel rider has the discomfort of sometimes inclement weather and increased vulnerability, then there has to be advantages, and the ability to get through traffic and shorten journey times, is a big one.

It's down to training, education, experience and tolerance of all road users, immaterial of exact adherence to all traffic laws (I'm sorry to say), to ensure the safety of all concerned.

I'm a great believer that part of the process of getting any driving licence, should include time on two wheels (impractical, I know).
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Sorry, I don't follow that one. You should get preferential treatment because you choose to ride your two-wheeler in inclement weather?
Not quite as simplistic as it's not preferential treatment (from others) - the right is earned, but if you like ..... yep.

Riders accept the negative aspect of some discomfort and increased danger, for the positive flip-side of not having to get stuck in traffic, and getting to their destination quicker, than those who prefer to sit all cozy and warm encapsulated in a tin (or plastic) box, for twice as long as they need to.

And if the last (bold) sentence of my quote ever became close to a reality, you wouldn't even be asking.
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  #53  
Old 06.03.2012, 12:27
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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I would assume he's groaning at you because you appear to be generalizing against all bikers based on your preconceptions and the actions of a few. At least, that's one reason I'm considering using when I red rep you in a second.
Oh, no you red repd me, Oh what am I going to do now? Mr Policeman just fined me....childish, but who cares

Back to subject: After my mirror has been broken down by a filtering motorbike (do I have proof? No, because filing a complaint would have been a waste of time since I did not get the chance to get his nr.) I am not going to put my vote down on filtering.
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:31
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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I don't see how anyone can object to this, of course filtering should be allowed for bikes.
It reduces congestion because the bikes will be using an otherwise unoccupied piece of road and freeing up a piece of road that they would have been occupying.
.
Besides damage to vehicles (but I wrote about it already) let's take a simple example:

I am waiting at the Gotthard tunnel for 3 hours in summer. In this time 100 bikes "filter" ahead. Do not tell me that will not add up to a certain amount of time that I will have to wait longer.

Call me selfish, but I dare you contradict me in this.
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:37
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Besides damage to vehicles (but I wrote about it already) let's take a simple example:

I am waiting at the Gotthard tunnel for 3 hours in summer. In this time 100 bikes "filter" ahead. Do not tell me that will not add up to a certain amount of time that I will have to wait longer.

Call me selfish, but I dare you contradict me in this.
You are just plain wrong. If you can't see how those hundred bikes get well out of your way you've clearly failed to understand filtering.

Hint: They don't only pass you, but also all the other cars on the road.
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  #56  
Old 06.03.2012, 12:41
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Still illegal. Specifically covered in the Swiss Highway Code, which is Law throughout CH.
So is driving in anything except the right-most lane except when passing, in fact it the same fine (#314)!

So, lets see them enforce that equally well!

And, I don't see anyone pulling over passenger cars with trailers on the highway for exceeding 80 kph, which is also the law!

Tom
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:43
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Besides damage to vehicles (but I wrote about it already) let's take a simple example:

I am waiting at the Gotthard tunnel for 3 hours in summer. In this time 100 bikes "filter" ahead. Do not tell me that will not add up to a certain amount of time that I will have to wait longer.

Call me selfish, but I dare you contradict me in this.
You are just plain wrong. If you can't see how those hundred bikes get well out of your way you've clearly failed to understand filtering.

Hint: They don't only pass you, but also all the other cars on the road.
Exactly and when they pass everyone in the line then what happens? DO THEY DISAPPEAR???

No, they go through the tunnel where they do not drive between lanes which means they occupy "slots" which means DELAY to all behind them. But if this needs explanation, then what am I arguing. Apparently this forum is not for arguing on subjects but about agreeing with forum veterans or get voted down.
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:44
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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But there are times when you pull out of a spot, it is all clear when you start, and by the time you finish and put the car in drive someone has come up behind you or is approaching and must slow down. Especially when someone has just come around a corner and are all of a sudden there. Those are the cases I speak of, not pulling out and cutting someone off.
You still do not have the right of way in this case.

Tom
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Old 06.03.2012, 12:46
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Unfortunately - and I speak as a rider who has done thousands of pressurised miles, splitting traffic, when I was out in LaLaLand - there will always be some dickhead driver who thinks that because they're in slow moving traffic, they don't have to worry about their lane position and will be hogging one side or the other, and will end up having their car scraped or mirror banged.

It is these people who will be the objectors, blaming others for their own short-comings.
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Oh, no you red repd me, Oh what am I going to do now? Mr Policeman just fined me....childish, but who cares

Back to subject: After my mirror has been broken down by a filtering motorbike (do I have proof? No, because filing a complaint would have been a waste of time since I did not get the chance to get his nr.) I am not going to put my vote down on filtering.
Still like my humour?
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  #60  
Old 06.03.2012, 12:46
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Besides damage to vehicles (but I wrote about it already) let's take a simple example:

I am waiting at the Gotthard tunnel for 3 hours in summer. In this time 100 bikes "filter" ahead. Do not tell me that will not add up to a certain amount of time that I will have to wait longer.

Call me selfish, but I dare you contradict me in this.
Yes, you are wrong, because they will all get off at Goeschenen and take the pass!

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Exactly and when they pass everyone in the line then what happens? DO THEY DISAPPEAR???

No, they go through the tunnel where they do not drive between lanes which means they occupy "slots" which means DELAY to all behind them.
The only motorcyclists that are going to take the tunnel (especially in summer) are those that don't filter!

Tom
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