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  #81  
Old 06.03.2012, 14:59
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Let me explain then, the piece of road between two lines of traffic is unoccupied and unusable by anything other than a bike.
A bike in a lane occupies that piece of road in as much as another vehicle can not occupy it.
If the bike id filtering in a space that can only be occupied by a bike, ie, between the lanes, then he has freed up the piece of lane otherwise occupied by himself.
Everyone's a winner.

Of course, the physics says the bike is always occupying a piece of road, but who would be so pedantic to come up with petty reasoning like that to say bikes shouldn't be allowed to filter?

sorry if I was being pedantic. I was really just trying to be sarcastic, but obviously failed. Everyone is a winner, indeed, filter all you want.

Anyways, just think of how even more impossibly long the waiting list for organs would be if it weren't for bikers out there. Especially those first warm days of the year that brings the bikes out. (again, sarcasm, and admittedly in bad taste. but I think there is some truth to the statement)
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  #82  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:00
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Actually yes, you are being selfish. The discussion is over traffic and you are only thinking about yourself.

Maybe a bit too academic, but given a group of mixed cars and motorcycles, whose goal is to move from A to B (including some "chicane" like a tunnel, if you so desire), allowing the motorcycles to filter will reduce the entire group time, at the expense of (some) of the cars. Depending on the initial position of the car one can either lose or gain time. But the reasoning stands: the time required for the entire group is shortened. Of course in real life it is difficult to measure such discrete group.

And since cars and motorcycles don't share the same parking spots, the bikes do "disappear" when they get off the road.

I'm sorry about your incident (and it does seem to have affected more than just your rearview mirror) but honestly without more information I can't directly 100% blame the biker. Maybe you were swerving in the lane and unintentionally put him in danger, and he reacted wrongly. Until you have ridden a motorcycle/scooter, you have no idea on how vulnerable one feels in the middle of heavy traffic, and how hard your survival instincts kick in.

If this law passes then motorcycle riders can be taught on how to properly and safely filter through standing traffic, and cars will be more aware of them doing it, hopefully avoiding situations like the one you experienced. Oh, and traffic will flow better, by the way...

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Besides damage to vehicles (but I wrote about it already) let's take a simple example:

I am waiting at the Gotthard tunnel for 3 hours in summer. In this time 100 bikes "filter" ahead. Do not tell me that will not add up to a certain amount of time that I will have to wait longer.

Call me selfish, but I dare you contradict me in this.
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  #83  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:02
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Anyways, just think of how even more impossibly long the waiting list for organs would be if it weren't for bikers out there. Especially those first warm days of the year that brings the bikes out. (again, sarcasm, and admittedly in bad taste. but I think there is some truth to the statement)
You're absolutely right, the killing season is upon us again.
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  #84  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:02
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Anyways, just think of how even more impossibly long the waiting list for organs would be if it weren't for bikers out there. Especially those first warm days of the year that brings the bikes out. (again, sarcasm, and admittedly in bad taste. but I think there is some truth to the statement)
Yes, but you've forgotten to mention all the cagers in their SUVs on their cell phones that actually CAUSE the accidents!

Tom
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Old 06.03.2012, 15:16
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

I used to object to bikers filtering, but then I took an arrow in the knee.

It's one of the main reasons I ditched my car for a Vespa, and as far as I have seen, certainly in town, it is very efficient and does not cause extra delays for car drivers.

What it does do is infuriate aggressive drivers who absolutely insist on screeching past you in a 30 zone, only for you to slip back in front of them at the next set of lights. I guess they are the people opposed.
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  #86  
Old 06.03.2012, 15:41
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

In semi-related news: has anyone seen those new 300cc vespas? Very nippy - enough to freak the tin boxers anyway!
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  #87  
Old 06.03.2012, 16:10
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

anyone that cuts off or swerves towards someone on a push bike or motorbike as a deliberate act deserves a mirror kicked or punched off. This time its a mirror, next time that bloke on the bike may stop and drag you out of the car.

wonder why most bike gloves have reinforced knuckle areas ( i know the real reason BTW)
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  #88  
Old 06.03.2012, 16:19
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Just posted my form to the SVKA for the A 25kw licence especially so i could get one of those bad boys!

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In semi-related news: has anyone seen those new 300cc vespas? Very nippy - enough to freak the tin boxers anyway!
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  #89  
Old 06.03.2012, 16:42
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Common in England BTW, and accepted practice for getting round the M25 in Rush Hour.
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  #90  
Old 06.03.2012, 18:31
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Odd discussion.

There are good reasons why filtering in for bikers is forbidden by codices in CH, D, F, I ... (btw also in Ticino),

just because the Police do overlook it (when maybe it's practiced with a bit of common sense, as otherwise traffic would be like hell maybe) does not mean that it is legal and that in case of accident you will not lose your insurance cover e.g.

Unfortunately Swiss traffic infrastructure (compared to Germany or Italy e.g.) is not very good, we have old narrow streets, conflicts of competence, rising numbers of foreign workers and so on without having enough resources for general street improvement, ...

... but the answer cannot be that one to allow illegality and lack of safety become the law.
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  #91  
Old 06.03.2012, 18:44
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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... but the answer cannot be that one to allow illegality and lack of safety become the law.
Actually it can. Remember, laws are supposedly created and enforced for and by society, for the morals and codes it wants to live by. If a law is ignored by 99%, is that law even effective?

If that moral code implies that riding without a helmet is legal (as it is in some US states), then so be it - any party trying to bring a helmet law in will be quickly dismissed through democratic process if enough of the electorate disagree with it. the politicians know this, and until public opinion changes on the matter, that law will never be proposed.

The same applies here. Chances are, enough bikers could hit the required number to get the filter law proposed. My gut tells me though, that the anti-filterers (jealous car drivers mainly) massively outnumber us, so I suspect this law is a dead duck.
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  #92  
Old 06.03.2012, 20:14
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Actually it can. Remember, laws are supposedly created and enforced for and by society, for the morals and codes it wants to live by. If a law is ignored by 99%, is that law even effective?
...
Maybe if we're talking 99% of the population.

But it's rather 99% of the bikers (or of those of them who don't see any problem in doing illegal acts) who don't follow the law, what seems a difference to me.
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Old 06.03.2012, 23:46
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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rising numbers of foreign workers.
Yeah, it's all their fault.
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  #94  
Old 07.03.2012, 00:01
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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rising numbers of foreign workers
Yeah, it's all their fault.
Didn't say that.

But e.g. Ticino nearly doubled its number of inhabitants during the last 50 years, concentrating quite exclusively in the region around Lugano and Chiasso,

frontaliers are at something like 55.000,

and streets are +- at a level of the mid 60ies (a real shame).


My proposal for a general improvement in this matter would be collective contracts and a good law inforcement in persecuting criminal salary dumping, investments in infrastructure and a second Gotthard tube.
But all what comes from Bern is njet and sh***.
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  #95  
Old 07.03.2012, 00:09
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

If only they'd allow the motorbikes to filter through the traffic, it could help easy congestion
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  #96  
Old 07.03.2012, 00:26
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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If only they'd allow the motorbikes to filter through the traffic, it could help easy congestion
Nobody cares about the law, and the police do overlook transgression as otherwise the police themselves would be the traffic blocker.

But the measure to continue not investing in anything hoping the problem would disappear by itself by legalizing dangerous (also if common) acts doesn't pay neither in the long nor in the short,

as statitics speak a very clear language in this matter: bikers are risky. And not only for themselves.
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Old 07.03.2012, 05:37
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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as statitics speak a very clear language in this matter: bikers are risky. And not only for themselves.
I'd like to see those stats, please - while I believe riding is a risky sport, that is separate from saying that bikers are risky. Let's see them in terms of accidents caused, injuries caused to others, and fatalities caused to others both in terms of kilometers driven and as a percentage of the total driving population.

Oh, be sure to include stats showing whether it was risky behavior from the rider or other factors involved. Looking forward to those stats.
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Old 07.03.2012, 08:32
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

Filtering is brilliant but you need to be a good, aware biker to do it. I find the scooters, especially the small ones that need only basic training, to be the worst offenders. My other half complains about the scoots that block the car in at the lights and don't take off very quickly - big scoots and bikes don't have this affect.

With regards to losing a wingmirror - that's happened to me by a car passing me too closely in two lanes. I'm not ranting about that, accidents happen.

Careful filtering is perfectly acceptable and I've been doing it in Switzerland for years. It's like speeding - it's only illegal if you get caught I take the safe side on the whole and will use sidewalks and go around traffic islands on the wrong side to get ahead.

The filtering at the Gotthard is hilarious. If you can't split lanes, don't split hairs about those who can - when I am in my car and see a biker sitting in line, I think they are stupid. Just relax in your air-conditioned cage and ponder upon whether you should have headed south with the masses this weekend or Easter.....

The only time I've been through the Gotthard tunnel on the bike is in March when the passes were not open. To be honest, given the choice, 100/100 times I'd be on the pass - the tunnel is awful on a bike.

So wind your neck in, naysayers, and support this idea. You could, with some training, join the gang.
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Old 07.03.2012, 08:51
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Odd discussion.

There are good reasons why filtering in for bikers is forbidden by codices in CH, D, F, I ... (btw also in Ticino),
It is not forbidden in Italy.

"Lane splitting is permitted in the following countries:


  • Austria
  • Belgium
  • Brazil
  • Croatia
  • Cyprus
  • Estonia
  • Greece
  • Ireland
  • Italy
  • Japan
  • Netherlands (jurisprudence assigns responsibility in case of accidents to the car driver [61])
  • New Zealand
  • Norway
  • Oman
  • Poland [62]
  • Portugal
  • Qatar
  • Singapore
  • Spain
  • South Africa
  • Taiwan
  • Turkey
  • U.A.E.
  • United Kingdom
  • United States
    • California has no laws explicitly prohibiting lane splitting, and is the only U.S. state for which official statements state that lane splitting, when done safely, is legal."

Tom
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Old 07.03.2012, 09:13
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Re: initiative to allow motorbikes to filter in traffic

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Odd discussion.

There are good reasons why filtering in for bikers is forbidden by codices in CH, D, F, I ... (btw also in Ticino),

just because the Police do overlook it (when maybe it's practiced with a bit of common sense, as otherwise traffic would be like hell maybe) does not mean that it is legal and that in case of accident you will not lose your insurance cover e.g.

Unfortunately Swiss traffic infrastructure (compared to Germany or Italy e.g.) is not very good, we have old narrow streets, conflicts of competence, rising numbers of foreign workers and so on without having enough resources for general street improvement, ...

... but the answer cannot be that one to allow illegality and lack of safety become the law.
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Take care Bucentaure, there are some forum veterans around here who are not here for having a discussion on the subject but to impose their opinion on others and groan, red-rep (like we'd care) etc all who dare to disagree.

Them groaning you is a great example of that.
I do not see anything in your post to be groaned at, other than EXPRESSING A DIFFERENT OPINION.
I think it is rude to groan someone just because you disagree. Groaning should be used if someone is rude, senseless etc.

But hey, they are the forum veterans who spend all their life, every day on the forum regardless of the subject (how do they have so much time and is CH so bad there is nothing better to do?): so apparently they make the rules here, which currently appears to be: AGREE WITH US OR SHUT UP.

THANKS FOR THE GROANS - you are just making my point!!

Last edited by EPMike; 07.03.2012 at 09:20. Reason: complete
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