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  #61  
Old 26.03.2012, 16:36
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Sure about that?


Ape car is nice but its aerodynamics is poor, unlike the Aptera
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  #62  
Old 26.03.2012, 19:32
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Ape car is nice but its aerodynamics is poor, unlike the Aptera
there is a simple reason why most people prefer either four or two wheels to some threewheeler: physics.
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  #63  
Old 26.03.2012, 22:27
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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yeah but Diesel engines are no saints:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Particulate_Matter

Even if now they use Filters to capture PM10 Particulate, and then postcumbust it when the filter is full, the truth is that this process produces PM2.5 particulate which is even worse than PM10.

I agree though that Diesel engine are the most efficient, not sure they are green or good for human health.
Diesel engines are pretty bad polluters and that's one of the reasons I refuse to buy a diesel powered car.

Unfortunately many people and especially the media seem totally obsessed with CO2 emissions these days and almost nobody talks or writes about PM, NOx or HC emissions which are actually toxic, unlike CO2.
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  #64  
Old 26.03.2012, 22:55
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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For a country that is comsidered a model for green energy and does so well in the control of pollution, recycling and energy consumption, why are there so few hybrid and electric cars?
why you don't see more of them here has been adequately answered above.

but just to add... the hybrids are only 'green' if you consider the fuel consumption. once you factor in the ecological impact of the batteries, I understand they are far worse on the environment than a typical small European fuel efficient car - whether petrol or diesel.

Since the Prius's are relatively new, not many people stop to think about this. Once you have had a few million of those in use for a few years, there will be another uproar about recycling the mountains of used-up Lithium batteries...
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  #65  
Old 26.03.2012, 23:00
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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there is a simple reason why most people prefer either four or two wheels to some threewheeler: physics.
Nonsense, I LOVE my three-wheeler, currently being restored (LeMans/sidecar, almost three years off the road).

With that, I can eat most anything in the Alps!

Tom
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  #66  
Old 27.03.2012, 10:20
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Diesel engines are pretty bad polluters and that's one of the reasons I refuse to buy a diesel powered car.

Unfortunately many people and especially the media seem totally obsessed with CO2 emissions these days and almost nobody talks or writes about PM, NOx or HC emissions which are actually toxic, unlike CO2.
I agree: Diesels are efficient but produce "unhealthy" particles.
So far - with currently available technology- my bet is on range extenders. Let a small (preferably Wankel) petrol engine run in its most efficient rev. range and let the wheels be driven by strong-torque electric engines. These two linked by a generator.

Example: Audi A1 e-tron.

Last edited by EPMike; 27.03.2012 at 10:22. Reason: compl
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  #67  
Old 27.03.2012, 13:30
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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there is a simple reason why most people prefer either four or two wheels to some threewheeler: physics.
we were not talking about the stability of a 3 wheels car, but the reason behind the Aptera design(water droplet aerodynamic drag coefficient).

There is no question that 4 wheels are more secure than 3, but it's funny how with an efficient aerodynamic design, you can greatly improve the fuel economy(better than a hybrid can).
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  #68  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:12
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Before I moved here I owned a Honda Insight Hybrid back in the US. Even though the US is still very famous for huge gas guzzling SUVs, people are starting to buy more hybrids and when I visited in February, I saw a lot of Prius, civic hybrids and so on. My question is why are there so few of them here? I saw an Insight today, but I would say I rarely if ever see hybrid vehicles here. For a country that is comsidered a model for green energy and does so well in the control of pollution, recycling and energy consumption, why are there so few hybrid and electric cars?
Average European cars are more fuel efficient than average US cars to start with, so the difference from switching to a hybrid wouldn't be as big. Plus, diesel cars are a viable alternative since they are just as fuel efficient and much cheaper than hybrids.
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  #69  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:33
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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I agree: Diesels are efficient but produce "unhealthy" particles.
So far - with currently available technology- my bet is on range extenders. Let a small (preferably Wankel) petrol engine run in its most efficient rev. range and let the wheels be driven by strong-torque electric engines. These two linked by a generator.

Example: Audi A1 e-tron.
Indeed FISKER all the way

http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/en-us

They are BIG 'tho

BUT any car that has "Stealth mode" is OK in my books
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  #70  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:38
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Before I moved here I owned a Honda Insight Hybrid back in the US. Even though the US is still very famous for huge gas guzzling SUVs, people are starting to buy more hybrids and when I visited in February, I saw a lot of Prius, civic hybrids and so on. My question is why are there so few of them here? I saw an Insight today, but I would say I rarely if ever see hybrid vehicles here. For a country that is comsidered a model for green energy and does so well in the control of pollution, recycling and energy consumption, why are there so few hybrid and electric cars?
Because the motor industry is conservative minded? There is a lot of capital tied up in existing manufacturing and engineering processes and the manufacturers are not going to throw them out of the window.

Innovations take a long long time to trickle down.

Same with buyers. People select cars for emotional reasons rather than on the basis of hard cost-benefit calculations. How much have you payed for bells and whistles and extras that you never use, or that you use maybe once a year in a situation where a hire car might have been the better choice anyway?
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  #71  
Old 27.03.2012, 14:47
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Hybrids work best in cities - or on local journeys. They fail in Switzerland because:
1) A lot of local journeys are done by public transport, foot or cycle.
true

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2) Switzerland is smaller and people don't drive so much from shop to shop.
true

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3) Outside of the cities Switzerland is mountainous. A low powered petrol engine shifting a heavy car, up a hill, is inefficient.
Not necessarily, as on the downhill leg a hybrid would recover that energy and recharge its batteries. The advantages of hybrid thus play more strongly in mountains than on flat roads. Provided of course that the batteries are able to absorb all that energy.

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4) Hybrids sell based on fuel saving costs - the Swiss are low mileage users - so the fuel saving costs are minimal.
True

High mileage users such as taxis already are frequently hybrids these days.

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5) High mileage users are autobahn drivers - where a mid-powered diesel is more efficient.
Depends how you define high mileage users. See above. I'm surprised we're not seeing more dustcarts and the like equipped with hybrid technology.

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6) The Swiss see through the "green" credentials of a hybrid.
absolutely
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  #72  
Old 27.03.2012, 15:08
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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Not necessarily, as on the downhill leg a hybrid would recover that energy and recharge its batteries. The advantages of hybrid thus play more strongly in mountains than on flat roads. Provided of course that the batteries are able to absorb all that energy.
How much of the uphill energy consumption is actually recovered downhill? I've never heard of 100% effeciency; generators and batteries are noriously bad in that field. I'd guess it's better than nothing, but definitely not great.
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  #73  
Old 27.03.2012, 15:13
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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How much of the uphill energy consumption is actually recovered downhill? I've never heard of 100% effeciency; generators and batteries are noriously bad in that field. I'd guess it's better than nothing, but definitely not great.
Captain Greybeard is spot on. And the majority of modern engines (basically anything built in the last 10 years) will have engine management that doesn't inject fuel on zero throttle opening. The wheels effectively turning the crank and moving the cylinders.

My old sportscar could spend the day being driven enthusiastically in the mountains - and then back home again - an return 10l/100km (or 28mpg in non-napolean). And this was for a 3.4 litre, straight 6 engine, producing 300ps++. I very much doubt that a Prius would be able to better that.

(For reference the DB9 that was with me that day drank fuel at a rate of 20l/100km)
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  #74  
Old 27.03.2012, 15:29
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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How much of the uphill energy consumption is actually recovered downhill? I've never heard of 100% effeciency; generators and batteries are noriously bad in that field. I'd guess it's better than nothing, but definitely not great.
This is thermodynamically impossible
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  #75  
Old 27.03.2012, 15:52
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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How much of the uphill energy consumption is actually recovered downhill? I've never heard of 100% effeciency; generators and batteries are noriously bad in that field. I'd guess it's better than nothing, but definitely not great.
Gearbox and shaft have an efficiency in the range of 90%. Road to wheel transmission maybe similar. An electric motor/generator is also around 90%. Thermic conversion is more like 30%. Battery maybe 50 to 60% if you're optimistic. So you can never recover 100%. You can't even recover 50%. But 30% is fair game. That may be insignificant on a flat roadway. But just imagine how much energy you can recover while rolling down from Airolo to Locarno. 30% of that is still a lot of energy.
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  #76  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:09
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

I recall hearing that the Jungfrau train pumps back 2/3 of what it used to go up, but that is fed back to the grid and not into a battery, so that jives with your 30%.

Tom
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  #77  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:23
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?




:P
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  #78  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:38
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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But just imagine how much energy you can recover while rolling down from Airolo to Locarno. 30% of that is still a lot of energy.
Try it sometime in a normal car - making note of your throttle position. It is great in theory - but that particular route often has a head wind - so you can wave goodbye to your fuel savings.

Typically you'll be using a smaller non-turbo petrol engine - which has to run less efficiently compared to a more substantial turbocharged petrol (or more commonly diesel) engine.

Prius - 99ps at 5200rpm (petrol) - 136ps total, 142nm at 2800rpm = 4.0l/100km, - 1500kg
Volvo V40 D3 - 150ps at 3500rpm (diesel), 350nm at 1400-2750rpm - 5.1l/100km - 1500kg

I know which one of those 2 would be the more efficient car in real world use.

And finally lets not forget that the Prius has had its economy arse handed to itself on a plate TWICE. Once by the M3 round the Top Gear track - and once by 5th Gear using the 520d to drive to Geneva.
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  #79  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:48
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

Doesn't the new 520 now return something like 4.9 now?

Some of these new cars petrol and diesel are also using regenerative braking and it will be REALLY interesting to see what porsche do on the road with the Williams hybrid power "kers"
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  #80  
Old 27.03.2012, 16:53
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Re: Why So Few Hybrid Cars?

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And finally lets not forget that the Prius has had its economy arse handed to itself on a plate TWICE. Once by the M3 round the Top Gear track - and once by 5th Gear using the 520d to drive to Geneva.

3 times once by a car mag in the uk against a Jeep!! from london to brighton
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