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Old 26.12.2007, 18:10
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Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

I just watched "Who killed the electric car" on Youtube. Very interesting documentary, but also highly disturbing. I know there are companies out there such as Lionev that convert and/or sell electric cars. Does anyone know about the possibility and availability of such kits/cars in Switzerland? I know the Swiss are tightly controlling every vehicle on the streets and perhaps they do not yet allow such vehicles on the road. Does anyone know what the policy is, or have any more info on extremely "green" driving in Switzerland? I would like my next car to be as green as possible, and no, a Prius Hybrid is not green enough for me.

The air car should be commercially available in the summer of 2008. That is of course, if the big oil companies and car manufacturers don't lobby, bribe, and corrupt government officials to have them declared not road worthy.

Last edited by ElJeFe; 26.12.2007 at 18:34.
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Old 26.12.2007, 19:50
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Have you considered a Twike?
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Old 26.12.2007, 19:52
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Don't know about the Swiss rules for electric vehicles. I do know that they don't have to look or feel lame, though: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Only thing though, where to plug it in if you're living in a flat and used to parking in the blue zone on some street nearby? If this could be solved (and the money for purchasing said vehicle miraculously arranged), I'd definitely get one.
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Old 26.12.2007, 21:25
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Don't know about the Swiss rules for electric vehicles. I do know that they don't have to look or feel lame, though: http://www.teslamotors.com/

Only thing though, where to plug it in if you're living in a flat and used to parking in the blue zone on some street nearby? If this could be solved (and the money for purchasing said vehicle miraculously arranged), I'd definitely get one.
Yeah that Tesla is pretty wicked, but out of my price range :-) I have a garage at the moment so arranging for electricity shouldn't be an impossibility.

A Twike is an interesting concept, however it does require physical input, and I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable (30,000+ CHF for a basic model), plus the fact that driving on the highway is probably not allowed since the top speed is around 85 km/h. Air powered vehicles are supposed to cost around 3500 € according to the manufacturer, with a top speed of 110 km/h.
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Old 27.12.2007, 00:30
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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The air car should be commercially available in the summer of 2008. That is of course, if the big oil companies and car manufacturers don't lobby, bribe, and corrupt government officials to have them declared not road worthy.
The air car is a big scam hunting for investor money. The principle fails because of a couple of physical problems and a ridiculously low energy density in this storage system. I could prove this with my mediocre math skills but at half past one in the morning, after four Cuba Libres, this is obviously out of the question.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT talk about the air car at the next Venture Cocktail party.
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Old 27.12.2007, 07:53
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

I always wondered if we were to switch our entire car pool (say Switzerland, to start small) from gas to electric - where would all that electricity come from?
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Old 27.12.2007, 08:43
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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I always wondered if we were to switch our entire car pool (say Switzerland, to start small) from gas to electric - where would all that electricity come from?
Thanks for raising that question. Of course a green BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) will need to be "fueled" with green electricity. Some argue that electric plants rely on coal and therefore the cars are not green, however the amount of CO2 resulting from charging the car via a power plant is far less than the CO2 it would spew out of its tailpipe were it powered by a combustion engine. Some people might start installing wind-power devices or solar panels to harvest the fuels for their BEVs. It is also a lot easier to change a single source of electricity into a green source, than it is to change tens of thousands of cars to become green. If we had the technology to put a man on the moon 40 years ago, we sure as hell have the technology to mass produce green cars today, the problem is the powers that be (big oil, car companies) who don't want to see their profits dwindle, and who will exert as much power as possible to keep the junkies (us) dependent on oil.
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:16
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Thanks for raising that question. Of course a green BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) will need to be "fueled" with green electricity. Some argue that electric plants rely on coal and therefore the cars are not green, however the amount of CO2 resulting from charging the car via a power plant is far less than the CO2 it would spew out of its tailpipe were it powered by a combustion engine.
Is that a fact? I'd like to see hard figures. For instance, the CO2 quantity released for 1kW electric power (say at the plant, to be nice and forego the enroute losses and the efficiency factors of the storage battery and the electric motor) versus 1kW gasoline power.

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If we had the technology to put a man on the moon 40 years ago, we sure as hell have the technology to mass produce green cars today, the problem is the powers that be (big oil, car companies) who don't want to see their profits dwindle, and who will exert as much power as possible to keep the junkies (us) dependent on oil.
Ah, sure, I keep hearing that argument. The only tiny detail that is forgotten by proponents of that phrase is the cost of the "man on the moon" technology. When cost comes into play, I usually hear "I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable".
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:26
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Is that a fact? I'd like to see hard figures. For instance, the CO2 quantity released for 1kW electric power (say at the plant, to be nice and forego the enroute losses and the efficiency factors of the storage battery and the electric motor) versus 1kW gasoline power.
Yes that is a fact, you can look up the figures yourself, besides you can request green energy at your local electricity provider in Switzerland. Green energy being solar power, hydroelectricity and other eco friendly energy sources.
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Ah, sure, I keep hearing that argument. The only tiny detail that is forgotten by proponents of that phrase is the cost of the "man on the moon" technology. When cost comes into play, I usually hear "I do not consider the pricing quite reasonable".
What about the cost to secure unrenewable energy resources in the middle east and Afghanistan? Currently the price is at hundreds of billions of dollars, and thousands of lives, not to mention that the price of oil is skyrocketing much to the pleasure of big oil. Hundred dollars a barrel is just the beginning. The "man on the moon" example was just to exemplify human creativity, not regarding cost obviously. Besides, can you can't put a price on the environment as a whole, it's far too precious.
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:40
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Although I don't have figures, I have heard the same thing as ElJeFe is saying from different sources.

Obviously hydro and nuclear will produce less CO2 than a car, but there are other environmental concerns with those. Though Switzerland is able to produce hydro without flooding large tracts of endangered rainforest.

Gas turbine power stations also win easily, as gas turbines are inherently more efficient than petrol or diesel engines once they get over a certain output.

But my understanding is that even the nastiest coal powerstations (and Australia uses filthy brown coal which should have been outlawed decades ago) are better than a car engine. This is because powerstations run at much higher temperatures allowing for more complete burning and less emissions, are designed to run at one speed/temperature/capacity and to be run at maximum efficiency within a small range of that, and are constantly monitored and maintained by a team of highly trained engineers.

A petrol or diesel car on the other hand spends most of it's life running cold and inefficiently. A car is also designed as a compromise so that it can operate in a variety of conditions from idling in traffic, through climbing up a mountain pass to cruising on the Autobahn at 200kph, so is rarely operating anywhere near it's maximum efficiency. Finally, maitenance on a car involves a biannual trip to a mechanic who can range from a highly skilled technician to some guy who barely got through high school but is cheap.

Electric motors do better here as they operate efficiently over a much wider range of conditions and don't nead to warm up to an ideal operating temperature to operate correctly.
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:44
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Yes that is a fact, you can look up the figures yourself, besides you can request green energy at your local electricity provider in Switzerland. Green energy being solar power, hydroelectricity and other eco friendly energy sources.
Um, I sure don't recall making any claims, so I'm not going to look for substance to your arguments. I shall just quip in with a fact, not a soundbyte - coal has the highest carbon intensity of all fossil fuels, as such coal-fired plants have the highest rate of CO2 output per kWh.

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What about the cost to secure unrenewable energy resources in the middle east and Afghanistan?
What resources are we securing in Afghanistan? Let's not get carried away by populism, shall we...
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:53
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Um, I sure don't recall making any claims, so I'm not going to look for substance to your arguments.
Wikipedia reference-linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle#Energy_efficiency_and_car bon_dioxide_emissions Besides, please do not ignore the fact that there is such a thing as green electricity.
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What resources are we securing in Afghanistan? Let's not get carried away by populism, shall we...
Pipelines mate, pipelines. Do you really think the US is in Afghanistan because the kindness of G.W.B's heart? to save the local population from the Taliban? Guess again. Let's not stick our heads in the sand like ostriches, shall we...
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:56
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

The world's greatest problem nowadays - wikipedia....

However, science says that coal puts out standardised .32kg CO2 per kWh. Gasoline puts out standardised .24kg CO2 per kWh. You can turn this around as much as you like it still remains the same.

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Pipelines mate, pipelines. Do you really think the US is in Afghanistan because the kindness of G.W.B's heart? to save the local population from the Taliban? Guess again. Let's not stick our heads in the sand like ostriches, shall we...
Mmm. Conspiracy theories. Me like.
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Old 27.12.2007, 09:59
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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The world's greatest problem nowadays - wikipedia....

However, science says that coal puts out standardised .32kg CO2 per kWh. Gasoline puts out standardised .24kg CO2 per kWh. You can turn this around as much as you like it still remains the same.



Mmm. Conspiracy theories. Me like.
Wikipedia is not the greatest problem (if at all), global warming is far greater.
I like how you keep ignoring the "green electricity" argument, where no carbon dioxide is produced. Not all power plants use coal.
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Old 27.12.2007, 11:41
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

You could wait until the conspiracies are all sorted out. But a short-term solution for your concerns: How about switching to bicycle and public transport in the meantime? And, if you really do need a car, use the "Mobility" concept?
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Old 28.12.2007, 14:46
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Wikipedia is not the greatest problem (if at all), global warming is far greater.
I like how you keep ignoring the "green electricity" argument, where no carbon dioxide is produced. Not all power plants use coal.
conspiracy aside .... you may like the look of this ... a little more practical than the Teslar .... Aptera

Funky styling.
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Old 28.12.2007, 15:41
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Electric motors do better here as they operate efficiently over a much wider range of conditions and don't nead to warm up to an ideal operating temperature to operate correctly.
True, but don't forget that the batteries need to warm up to work at maximum efficiency. I can't remember the figures, but the Tesla reserves x% of its battery energy to generate heat for this purpose.

I support mass market all electric cars, but in the meantime most Swiss cities have electric powered trams and trolley buses. And I'll have to make do with a turbo diesel MINI Cooper Clubman (less CO2 than a Toyota Prius) .
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Old 29.12.2007, 21:26
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Hmm... the Toyota Prius. Not exactly what I would call a shining example of environmentally sound manufacturing technology http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188
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Old 30.12.2007, 05:57
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

Much of this has been covered n the Global Warming thread (train wreck) ... but this online journal is always worth looking through : Technology Review
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Old 30.12.2007, 09:06
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Re: Electrical cars, eco friendly driving, options in CH?

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Hmm... the Toyota Prius. Not exactly what I would call a shining example of environmentally sound manufacturing technology http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188
Actually the article you quote is almost pure BS. Do a little serious research on Sudbury and you'll see...
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