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  #61  
Old 14.02.2015, 11:48
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

So on the right to privacy.

The other night I came home and found a person sleeping under my mail boxes. At first i thought she was injured / had fallen and asked if she was ok - she just stared at me with a glazed over look took her shoes from the radiator and put them on and she left. I had my phone in my hand and messaged the guy i had just been drinking with telling him, he replied picture or it's not true. So i snapped a photo and and showed him.

This all happened in seconds and was surreal but thinking back, clearly she was sleeping rough / homeless, my building has no security in that area and has a nice warm radiator.

Should I tell the commune, police, building management company, neighbours.. (Will i get in trouble if show them the photo) . Or I just tell you lot here and move on..
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  #62  
Old 03.03.2015, 14:07
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

Coop BRICO is now selling an HP dashcam (model F210) for CHF 199.90 with the suction cup mount. They have the details in the weekly Coop magazine.

Pricing is not great compared to other online options but you can see it before buying elsewhere. HP also has a better version, the F310.

Product review: http://dashboardcamerareviews.com/hp-f210/

Interesting that they are selling a dashcam in CH despite the legal issues!
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  #63  
Old 03.03.2015, 14:55
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

A German lower court ruled that dash cam footage is inadmissible evidence in a civil law process about damages.

https://www.lawblog.de/index.php/arc...dashcam-nicht/

Same lawyer mentions a case in the German state Hessia, where own daschcam footage, unrelated to to initial complaint, was used against witness.

He also mentions that dashcams are illegal in Belgium, Luxembourg, Portugal, and closest to us, in Austria.
http://www.arag.de/auf-ins-leben/udo...-aber-riskant/

As he does not cite any sources for these countries, here the one for Austria: https://www.dsb.gv.at/site/8105/default.aspx
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  #64  
Old 08.04.2015, 21:44
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

Sorry to bring this one up again, but just received the TCS magazine in the post and they have a story about Dashcams [1] should anyone be interested. Sounds like it might not be all bad...


[1] http://issuu.com/touring-online/docs...15_d_03/19?e=0
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  #65  
Old 13.04.2015, 15:48
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

After a few close calls I was also wondering about a camerafor the car, or possible the motorbike but read the Swiss laws:

http://www.edoeb.admin.ch/datenschutz/00625/00729/01075/index.html?lang=en

I often wonder about all the motorbike riding around withHero cameras and such.


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  #66  
Old 13.04.2015, 18:52
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

Should not not must not
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Old 15.05.2016, 23:51
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

Hello everyone,

As many of you I have stumbled upon the article on admin.ch regarding dashcams: http://www.edoeb.admin.ch/datenschut...x.html?lang=en and I was wondering if it is legal or not in Switzerland?

The article is fuzzy and it is not clear on the final decision. In "yes/no" terms what is their answer?
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  #68  
Old 16.05.2016, 00:08
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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Be very careful, in Switzerland you should not have anything on the dashboard or windscreen that stops your view of the road. Yes I know the Autobahn Vignette does.... so maybe you should mount it over on the right side.
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Are you being serious??

I mean, I know the Swiss police are always looking for new ways to hassle their predominantly law abiding citizens & relieve them of even more cash & their own boredom at the same time, but that's gotta be taking the piss, no?
People will post all sorts of BS on here just to get you worried
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  #69  
Old 16.05.2016, 00:13
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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Hello everyone,

As many of you I have stumbled upon the article on admin.ch regarding dashcams: http://www.edoeb.admin.ch/datenschut...x.html?lang=en and I was wondering if it is legal or not in Switzerland?

The article is fuzzy and it is not clear on the final decision. In "yes/no" terms what is their answer?
There is no Yes/No answer to the question. They are not illegal to use (assuming they are not blocking the driver's view) but they are not "approved" either and you need to be careful about how they (the content) is used.

You do not want to use the content to post on YouTube or other sites or you will have problems. To help in the case of an accident the police (and the courts) are sometimes willing to look at/use the content.
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Old 16.05.2016, 00:23
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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Hello everyone,

As many of you I have stumbled upon the article on admin.ch regarding dashcams: http://www.edoeb.admin.ch/datenschut...x.html?lang=en and I was wondering if it is legal or not in Switzerland?

The article is fuzzy and it is not clear on the final decision. In "yes/no" terms what is their answer?
It's totally clear.

I was going to quote relevant parts or highlights of the admin.ch advice, then realised that I'd end up quoting just about every sentence. It's really very clear. Read the final sentence of the admin.ch text below for an executive summary. Or just read this:

"NO."

Here's the admin.ch text:
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Guidelines on video surveillance in vehicles (Dashcams)

«Dashcams» are the latest trend on the video surveillance market. These are cameras installed in vehicles in order to film what is happening on the roads. People do this for various reasons, from simple entertainment to securing evidence in the event of accidents. In some countries these cameras are required by law or by insurers, but in Switzerland their use contravenes data protection principles.

Video cameras for vehicles, known as dashcams, are growing in popularity in Switzerland. They are increasingly being used to film the road in front of or behind a vehicle, either as a source of entertainment or as a source of evidence in the event of an accident. If people or vehicle number plates are recognisable on the films, this constitutes the processing of personal data, and the general rules on data processing laid down in the Data Protection Act must be complied with (see Factsheets «Video Surveillance by Private Individuals»). But these rules are often broken when dashcams are used. Where private individuals film the streets and roads around their vehicles, this inevitably amounts to the private video surveillance of public spaces. This type of surveillance is subject to very strict limits, as we explain in our Guidelines «Video Surveillance of Public Places by Private Individuals». Generally speaking, people fail to keep within these limits when using dashcams.

Basically these cameras record anyone on the street at the time. Normally the people concerned are unaware that they are being filmed; they only find out that a recording has been made when an accident occurs and they are shown the film. Data processing takes place in secret, which contravenes theprinciple of transparency. This is serious, as it makes it impossible for the persons concerned to assert their personal privacy rights before it is too late (right to information, right to take legal action, see «Die Rechte der betroffenen Personen bei der Bearbeitung von Personendaten» in German or «Droits de la personne concernée en matière de traitement de données personnelles» in French). This type of serious breach of data protection principles can never be justified on journeys filmed simply for entertainment (i.e. if the film is of a particularly spectacular trip and is going to be made available for public viewing). This is why no one should be recognisable on such recordings. But given the legal position, recordings made in order to be used as evidence are also problematic.

The principle of proportionality is also frequently breached when using dashcams. If the camera is run constantly in order to obtain evidence and thus everything is recorded (i.e. not just specific incidents such as accidents), data processing is not limited to people involved in an incident or who have acted unlawfully. Anyone within range of the camera is recorded indiscriminately. Doing this is totally disproportionate to the purpose of the exercise, as all road users come under general suspicion and a stockpile is made of processed data. This procedure is rather different from what the police do, as they normally record data on patrol only if they observe a specific breach of the traffic regulations or at least have good reason to believe that such a breach is being committed.

In summary we would reiterate that using dashcams on public roads normally breaches the principles of transparency and proportionality if specific persons can be recognised in the recordings. These breaches are serious and can only be justified if there is an overriding private or public interest in making the recordings.

Normally there is no such justification, with the result that the recordings constitute an unlawful breach of privacy. Guaranteeing road safety is the duty of the police and not a matter for private road users. This means dashcams cannot be justified on road safety grounds. Even the understandable desire to have pictures to hand that can be used as evidence in the event of an accident is not an interest that outweighs the right to personal privacy, especially as such recordings seldom provide clear-cut evidence of what actually happened.

For these reasons, dashcams should not be used in public places.

Last update: July 2013
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Old 16.05.2016, 02:24
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

Hello 22 yards,

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It's totally clear.

I was going to quote relevant parts or highlights of the admin.ch advice, then realised that I'd end up quoting just about every sentence. It's really very clear. Read the final sentence of the admin.ch text below for an executive summary. Or just read this:

"NO."

For these reasons, dashcams should not be used in public places.
Yes, I did read the sentence until the end. In case the dashcams are not legal why they simply not clearly state it and also introduce a fine or any legal action for using them?
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  #72  
Old 16.05.2016, 08:55
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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In case the dashcams are not legal why they simply not clearly state it and also introduce a fine or any legal action for using them?
They clearly state:

"In summary we would reiterate that using dashcams on public roads normally breaches the principles of transparency and proportionality if specific persons can be recognised in the recordings. These breaches are serious and can only be justified if there is an overriding private or public interest in making the recordings."

"the general rules on data processing laid down in the Data Protection Act must be complied with"

Violation of the Data Protection Act comes with penalties. Read all of https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...153/index.html

There is no need to explicitly take action against dashcams as a more generic approach is used. The article quoted also shows that a lot of room is left for courts to decide - "normally breaches", "can only be justified", "overriding ... interest". All of these statements have to been assessed in the context of the "Federal Act on Data Protection" ("DSG"; link see above) and will be interpreted by courts.

EDIT: Things are flexible over here. Case in point, in the context of the Rupperswil murder: "Am 25. Dezember riefen die Behörden zudem Automobilisten auf, Aufnahmen ihrer Dashcams (am Armaturenbrett der Fahrzeuge befestigte Videokameras) vom Montag aus der Region zur Verfügung zu stellen. " (http://www.nzz.ch/panorama/ungluecks...eos-1.18668831) ("On December 25 the authorities called for road users to provide the recordings of their dashcams ...").

Nice ambiguity here? Indiscriminate use of dashcams is an invasion of privacy, in this specific case the results of that very intrusion is the one thing that the authorities could be interested in. So what happens to those who violated the DSG? Will they be "verzeigt and gebüsst" (reported and penalized)?

Last edited by daffy99; 16.05.2016 at 09:04. Reason: Add EDIT
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Old 16.05.2016, 12:33
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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There is no Yes/No answer to the question. They are not illegal to use (assuming they are not blocking the driver's view) but they are not "approved" either and you need to be careful about how they (the content) is used.

You do not want to use the content to post on YouTube or other sites or you will have problems. To help in the case of an accident the police (and the courts) are sometimes willing to look at/use the content.
I didn't have time to go looking for a situation that I read about last year of the footage being used by the courts when I posted this yesterday.

It seems that the court in VS fined a driver for tail-gating based on footage from a camera on the car in front. The first driver was ticked at the person behind who as glued to his trunk so he sent the file to the police. The person following was fined CHF 1'000 + 40 days at his daily salary based solely on the proof from the camera.

So for all that is officially said about the cameras, there are cases where the police/courts are willing to use the footage to help in their research or to prove what happened in the specific situation.

Link to May 2015 article (FR) that I cited: http://www.24heures.ch/high-tech/Con...story/18806036
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  #74  
Old 16.05.2016, 12:38
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

I'm going to go a little off topic her (but that's nothing new for EF!) Living in Luzern I'm not able to walk through town without be captured in 10's of tourists pictures every day, and I'm sure that in a load of these I would be identifiable (not just a blur in the background).

If the dashcam rules stated state:

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In summary we would reiterate that using dashcams on public roads normally breaches the principles of transparency and proportionality if specific persons can be recognised in the recordings. These breaches are serious and can only be justified if there is an overriding private or public interest in making the recordings.
Does a tourists breach my privacy if they take photos where I can be identified in the background? Or is their interest in recording their holiday a justifiable overriding of my right to privacy?

Tourist pictures will be seen (with me in them) when they go home and show pictures to friends, or upload them to facebook etc. Where as Dashcam footage is most likely going to be overwritten next time you go out in the car (unless something, which could prove to be or interest).

I know I'm just being silly now, but it is something that has gone through my mind on more than one occasion.
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  #75  
Old 16.05.2016, 12:45
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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I know I'm just being silly now, but it is something that has gone through my mind on more than one occasion.
Not silly at all, in my view. The law in its current state is a mess.
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Old 16.05.2016, 13:04
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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People will post all sorts of BS on here just to get you worried
So Mr Wallibies,

We have established that a camera or a navigator must not obstruct the view of the road ahead.

We have established that it is not OK to film people and publish the verifiable images.

We have established that simply recording the view of the road, and people using it, IS possible if you are prudent.

Referring to another thread about the murder of the family in Rupperswil on 23. December last year, the police asked the public for dash cam images from people using the cameras in the area.
.

Last edited by Sbrinz; 16.05.2016 at 14:43. Reason: added Rupperswil
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  #77  
Old 16.05.2016, 13:15
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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Living in Luzern I'm not able to walk through town without be captured in 10's of tourists pictures every day, and I'm sure that in a load of these I would be identifiable

...

Does a tourists breach my privacy if they take photos where I can be identified in the background? Or is their interest in recording their holiday a justifiable overriding of my right to privacy?
http://www.edoeb.admin.ch/datenschut...x.html?lang=de

Sorry, official Swiss languages only.

Gist: No violation of your privacy (reasonable, in my opinion) but you may ask for photos to be deleted (good luck with that!)
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Old 16.05.2016, 13:17
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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The law in its current state is a mess.
I disagree.

The law is very reasonable, spells out intent, and leaves enough room for courts to rule based on context.
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Old 19.05.2016, 02:28
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

I see. Well, no dashcam it is.
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Old 19.05.2016, 10:44
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Re: Dashcam (Dashboard Camera)

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Yes, I did read the sentence until the end. In case the dashcams are not legal why they simply not clearly state it and also introduce a fine or any legal action for using them?
Because the EDÖB is not a judge therefore he can not issue verdicts. He can and does however issue recommendations as that is part of his competence. Thus he can't say 'dashcams are forbidden' but rather 'they sould not be used'.

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Does a tourists breach my privacy if they take photos where I can be identified in the background? Or is their interest in recording their holiday a justifiable overriding of my right to privacy?
[..]
I know I'm just being silly now, but it is something that has gone through my mind on more than one occasion.
Not silly. And yes, generally speaking he may be breaching your privacy, as evidenced by your general right to demand the picture be deleted.

However, that right may be overridden if, for instance, you just happen to be there/on the picture, for instance a picture of the Kapellbrücke: Living there you know it's a tourist magnet so you know there's a high probability you'll be photographed when walking across. That may be enough to void your right to privacy. However, being photographed somewhere in the outskirts of Luzern you certainly have the right to demand it be deleted.

I wonder though how many tourists would follow your demand and actually delete their picture(s). Perhaps better avoid the tourist areas to begin with.
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