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  #21  
Old 27.07.2015, 17:47
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Re: Race driving course

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And perhaps I will go to the AMG course as well, although that seems like a bit of a scam:
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/driving-...a.php?lang=eng
And why would it be a scam?
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  #22  
Old 27.07.2015, 17:51
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Re: Race driving course

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And why would it be a scam?
I read you dont spend a lot of time on the track actually driving, plus the price seems high for what it is. Scam is perhaps too strong a word tho.
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  #23  
Old 27.07.2015, 17:55
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Re: Race driving course

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I read you dont spend a lot of time on the track actually driving, plus the price seems high for what it is. Scam is perhaps too strong a word tho.
You'll learn more in a class room than you'll ever learn behind the wheel. The practical is there for you to utilise the knowledge you have gained to replicate the expected result. On a wet corner, you floor the throttle mid-corner and the back-end steps out - why?

Sat in a classroom learning why it happens, how it happens and how to both manage it and to use it to your advantage is paramount.
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  #24  
Old 27.07.2015, 17:56
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Re: Race driving course

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I read you dont spend a lot of time on the track actually driving, plus the price seems high for what it is. Scam is perhaps too strong a word tho.
As a novice, this may be no bad thing !
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Old 27.07.2015, 23:34
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Re: Race driving course

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You'll learn more in a class room than you'll ever learn behind the wheel. The practical is there for you to utilise the knowledge you have gained to replicate the expected result. On a wet corner, you floor the throttle mid-corner and the back-end steps out - why?

Sat in a classroom learning why it happens, how it happens and how to both manage it and to use it to your advantage is paramount.
I disagree. You learn on a track how to feel the car's momentum and slide. The book or class room will never teach you that. Having said that, you will never understand why things happened without the book and the class room..

I am a racing (amateur) driver in the Caterham R300 series and that car gives you all the feedback you need to understand the car on a track. There are competitions in France and Germany (and UK, Malaysia, etc) you may join. The Caterham has an engine behind the front wheels and in front of the driver. The driver sits on the rear axel. this is where you get the feedback.

going on track with a E63 is pointless in my view to learn anything about racing. The car is too heavy and you are too far away from where it really happens. The Caterham is not expensive if you get it without license plates and if you damage it repairs are cheap (that you cannot say of a E63)

My advise. hire a Caterham and book a 3 day course for a FIA racing license. You can do that not in Switzerland but in France, Germany, Netherlands, etc
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  #26  
Old 28.07.2015, 08:52
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Re: Race driving course

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I disagree. You learn on a track how to feel the car's momentum and slide. The book or class room will never teach you that. Having said that, you will never understand why things happened without the book and the class room..
I made it clear that it isn't just about theory. Once you have the theory it is far easier to go through the slip point, know what will happen and what to do when it does. Nothing says "I have no theory knowledge" than trailing throttle oversteer and the brake lights staying on. You also don't need a track to feel momentum and slide - that can be simulated in a more controlled manner at a driving center - skid pans are the perfect example of that.

Once you have those advanced skills of driving, then you should head out on track. Not only will you be better equiped to deal with what could happen on track but your fellow drivers will be far more comfortable with you.

I have seen a really eclectic mix of cars on track over the years - from BarryBoy Ricers, to Porsche Cup cars - and pretty much everything in between. I've seen a couple of Maserati's eat their gearboxes after just a morning of action! The E63 is heavy and soft which will make it harder work on track and it will tire more quickly. For a beginner this is a good thing - if something goes wrong they'll go through kitty litter at a lower speed and secondly the car will tire more quickly than they will.

The main advantage of the Caterham is you don't have to deal with tyre and brake wear - double the weight and after 20mins of hard racing you can have a car that handles completely different to the start of the race. The Caterham will pretty much drive the same (once the tyres are warm) across quite a wide window - although I suspect that information hadn't been relayed to the littany of Caterhams that were spat out by turn 4 at Pembrey. You've never lived until you have gone round that corner side by side with someone with mirrors overlapping absolutely trusting they won't open their line.
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Last edited by dodgyken; 28.07.2015 at 10:33.
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  #27  
Old 28.07.2015, 10:25
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Re: Race driving course

The E63 (S) is certainly not a racing car, it's fast, it's brutal and you can show most other things on a straint road the back of the car, but on a windy road or a race track, you'll be eating the dust.
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  #28  
Old 28.07.2015, 12:20
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Re: Race driving course

Hehe I certainly dont think my car is a race car perse, just that I can go on a racetrack with a half decent car. Anyway its my every day car, so wouldnt feel comfortable driving it to the max in any case.

Good points about theory and will check out the caterhams..
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  #29  
Old 28.07.2015, 13:33
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Re: Race driving course

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Hehe I certainly dont think my car is a race car perse, just that I can go on a racetrack with a half decent car. Anyway its my every day car, so wouldnt feel comfortable driving it to the max in any case.

Good points about theory and will check out the caterhams..

Caterhams are very slow compared to this:

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  #30  
Old 28.07.2015, 14:19
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Re: Race driving course

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Caterhams are very slow compared to this:

Nice
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  #31  
Old 28.07.2015, 18:14
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Re: Race driving course

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Hehe I certainly dont think my car is a race car perse, just that I can go on a racetrack with a half decent car. Anyway its my every day car, so wouldnt feel comfortable driving it to the max in any case.

Good points about theory and will check out the caterhams..
OK, I am biased against the top end Mercs (except the SLS AMG, which defeats my bias with sheer good looks) because they are nigh indistinguishable from the low end models and they tend to cater either to the bling or the 70+ crowd. They also waste an awesome engine on a car that has no chance in hell to put that power down on the road. All in all, they are basically high end drag cars. With great finesse, you can drive in a straight line with most of the engine output being utilized. Forget about cornering though.

That being said, I'd not take any big sedan car on a race track because frankly that's a bit defeating the purpose.

a) you won't drive them properly because you don't want to wreck them
b) you won't drive them properly because they are big, heavy bricks that remove all the feedback from the road to the driver.

If you can afford to take your E63 on track days, you can afford to buy a caterham. The difference is that the caterham will be a much more rewarding ride.

If you manage to damage the suspension of your E63, that'll be either expensive or very expensive. If you break a wheel off of a caterham, that's basically a few spare parts and some elbow grease.
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  #32  
Old 28.07.2015, 18:17
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Re: Race driving course

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OK, I am biased against the top end Mercs (except the SLS AMG, which defeats my bias with sheer good looks) because they are nigh indistinguishable from the low end models and they tend to cater either to the bling or the 70+ crowd. They also waste an awesome engine on a car that has no chance in hell to put that power down on the road. All in all, they are basically high end drag cars. With great finesse, you can drive in a straight line with most of the engine output being utilized. Forget about cornering though.

That being said, I'd not take any big sedan car on a race track because frankly that's a bit defeating the purpose.

a) you won't drive them properly because you don't want to wreck them
b) you won't drive them properly because they are big, heavy bricks that remove all the feedback from the road to the driver.

If you can afford to take your E63 on track days, you can afford to buy a caterham. The difference is that the caterham will be a much more rewarding ride.

If you manage to damage the suspension of your E63, that'll be either expensive or very expensive. If you break a wheel off of a caterham, that's basically a few spare parts and some elbow grease.
Which E63 did you drive?
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  #33  
Old 28.07.2015, 18:22
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Re: Race driving course

There used to be a small racing track in the small town of Lignières, above Neuchâtel. This is where I learnt to race in the late 60s- it was great fun.

Just checked it out, and it is now used by the TCS (Touring Club Suisse, same at the AA or RAC, or AAA) - as a track for training people to drive in snow and ice, and other advanced driving courses.
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  #34  
Old 28.07.2015, 22:53
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Re: Race driving course

I am biased towards the Caterhams owning two of them. The carts are also great and permitted in Switzerland. Also easier to transport, cheaper, etc. Depending a bit on your build and weight if it is something for you to consider. mass matters

the great thing about the Caterhams is that there are competitions as you can drive nice on a track but when the lights go out a whole new world comes at you. It is a car with a clutch and a gearshift as a normal car. Breaking with the left foot is only partially possible etc. I learned a lot racing the caterham and still do.

I have also taken different Porsches to the track and although these are very different animals the reward you get from the open Caterham with the open wheels is superb. The biggest bang for your money

If you want any referrals to Caterham or carting drop me a PM
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Old 28.07.2015, 22:58
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Re: Race driving course

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The Caterham will pretty much drive the same (once the tyres are warm) across quite a wide window - although I suspect that information hadn't been relayed to the littany of Caterhams that were spat out by turn 4 at Pembrey. You've never lived until you have gone round that corner side by side with someone with mirrors overlapping absolutely trusting they won't open their line.
Thats indeed what makes the adrenalin pumping but these cars handle so good that (lunatics aside) you can slide to the centimeter. In the competitions you get to know your opponents so you can anticipate. It does go wrong sometimes but with a low mass there is relatively low energy to crash with. just do not race a Golf or M3 or E63 as their mass is double yours.
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Old 29.07.2015, 01:17
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Re: Race driving course

Why the groans guys?



Tinkiwinki, thanks I might take you up on that
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  #37  
Old 29.07.2015, 08:53
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Re: Race driving course

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Which E63 did you drive?
I drove the CLS63 - decent sound considering the turbos and the interior was lovely - and I was very very tempted. BUT the steering wasn't particularly communative, the car was too tail biased in its handling and, having had a bi-turbo in the past, I was keen to hold onto a more natural torque curve.

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Thats indeed what makes the adrenalin pumping but these cars handle so good that (lunatics aside) you can slide to the centimeter. In the competitions you get to know your opponents so you can anticipate. It does go wrong sometimes but with a low mass there is relatively low energy to crash with. just do not race a Golf or M3 or E63 as their mass is double yours.
This was 2 M3s going side by side. The advantage of racing in a saloon is that the weight transfer and fundamental handling characteristics transfer easily to the road. Saying that, I ran solid engine mounts which dialed out latent engine momentum and tightened up the front end - the downside was that because the gearbox remained standard (well 5 instead of 6 speed) any lateral force (from a side to side collision heading into Druids perhaps) could cause the gearbox case "tongues" (that attach to the mounts) to snap off. You feel the momentum then when the engine and gearbox are supported by just one mount!

I'd advocate getting out on track in an E63 at the start - just to see how woeful it is when the handling is taken to the limits. The OP will learn a huge amount about momentum - both under braking (understeer) and then power on as the back end becomes unstuck. The downside may be that when the OP gets it wrong it will be expensive.
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  #38  
Old 29.07.2015, 11:28
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Re: Race driving course

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I drove the CLS63 - decent sound considering the turbos and the interior was lovely - and I was very very tempted. BUT the steering wasn't particularly communative, the car was too tail biased in its handling and, having had a bi-turbo in the past, I was keen to hold onto a more natural torque curve.
Big difference between the atmospheric AMGs and the new ones..also putting suspension in sport plus mode makes it handle pretty nicely (ofcourse its not a dedicated race car)..
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  #39  
Old 29.07.2015, 16:18
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Re: Race driving course

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Big difference between the atmospheric AMGs and the new ones..also putting suspension in sport plus mode makes it handle pretty nicely (ofcourse its not a dedicated race car)..
Is this the first fast car you owned ?
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Old 29.07.2015, 16:22
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Re: Race driving course

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Is this the first fast car you owned ?
I had a 160 HP Volvo before so, yes This is my second car.
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