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  #41  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:16
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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The two cantons that can easily be mixed up -- IMHO -- are Geneva and Berne. Both are big cantons and both cantons have sophisticated coats of arms with resembling patterns (black, yellow and red colors) when you are not very close to the plate...


BL vs. GL <-- coats of arms don't resemble: crosier vs. pilgrim
FR vs. GR <-- coats of arms don't resemble
GR vs. GE <-- coats of arms don't resemble
ZH vs. ZG <-- despite the resembling coats of arms (colors), being a small canton, it's unlikely that they will misread Z? 4XX XXX as a ZG plate
I don't know whether these cameras have sufficient resolution to be able to distinguish heraldic details. Normally it's the alphanumeric characters that are used to identify the vehicle, not the arms.

Probably there is even an OCR system, not requiring manual identification. I don't think computers do cantonal heraldry.
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  #42  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:16
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

There are no intersections on this street at the point I got the ticket.
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  #43  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:16
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Box junctions in the UK work like this.
Yeah, and they're very clearly marked and only used if it would cause a non-minor obstruction. They're not used at pedestrian crossings, for example.
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  #44  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:18
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Not really, no. As Phil indicates above, you are responsible for clearing the crossing before the lights change. If your exit isn't clear you shouldn't pass the red light.


Given the objective is to ensure the junctions are kept free for crossing traffic (or in this case the crossing is kept free for pedestrians) sounds reasonable to me.


Box junctions in the UK work like this.
Here in AG/Baden, red-light jumping happens quite frequently, sometimes with accidents resulting (refer to newspapers). There have been times that if, when my light has gone green and me being first, I drove off, I would have certainly hit (or been T-boned by) a red-light-jumper.. more so dangerous as they tend to accelerate to clear the junction.

I really wish they would introduce red-light cameras - the return on investment would be phenomenal...

I do like the yellow-box junctions in the UK, it keeps the junction free. Not the case here, unfortunately. Sometimes the light is green, but the junctions and corresponding exits themselves are very often blocked by other cars (and they just seem absolutely oblivious that they are blocking the flow of traffic in other directions). Anyway, in such situations, I stay put (often with the car behind getting annoyed) if I would not be able to clear the junction / exit.
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  #45  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:20
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Yeah, and they're very clearly marked and only used if it would cause a non-minor obstruction. They're not used at pedestrian crossings, for example.
True - but you don't need it for a pedestrian crossing, they already have the lines for the crossing itself defining the box.
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  #46  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:24
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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You need to take a breath and chill a little before you next get into a car. It's a pain, it was expensive, but these things happen. Take it in your stride.

Don't drive angry, folks.

I don't need to take a break. ;-) I am not angry. I don't drive angry -)

Just upset with the value I had to pay.

I had not even one single ticket in 8 years here neither in my entire life in the U.S. My drivers license there says: example driver on it.

That is the reason it is so frustrating.

I see here people scared if they will receive a ticket because they did cross a red light or were speeding. This was not my case.
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  #47  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:28
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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I don't need to take a break. ;-) I am not angry. I don't drive angry -)

Just upset with the value I had to pay.

I had not even one single ticket in 8 years here neither in my entire life in the U.S. My drivers license there says: example driver on it.

That is the reason it is so frustrating.

I see here people scared if they will receive a ticket because they did cross a red light or were speeding. This was not my case.
Ask any frequent driver in Switzerland about fines and there are very few who have never had a fine of any sort.

Some people just budget it into the overall costs of driving.

If you've got away this long just consider yourself lucky, or very skilled. You're probably in a minority.

Don't get bitter over it, just move on.
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  #48  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:37
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

I guess that all my Porsche Sport Driving School courses have always paid off and saved me as well a couple of times of bad drivers.
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  #49  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:39
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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So then tell me this, to clarify your statement:

I drove passed the traffic light as the light was green.

I should have seen that the traffic was not moving in front of me and stop at the traffic light even when the light was green?
Just because a light is green doesn't necessarily mean you should carry on regardless, especially if you see a potential or actual blockage ahead. If you judge that you will not make it accross a safety zone in time to prevent a potential safety hazard or blockage that will put you on the wrong side of road safety laws then you should theoretically stay put and wait for the next light change and the traffic to clear.
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  #50  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:39
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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I see here people scared if they will receive a ticket because they did cross a red light or were speeding. This was not my case.
If you crossed so clearly before the light changed, was there traffic just behind you while you were waiting on the other side, or had it stopped at the lights?

The long and short of it is that you were in the wrong, and you got caught. You may think you are a perfect driver, everybody does, but you're not. You learned a new thing today; be happy.
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  #51  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:40
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Yes, that is correct.
You shouldn't have passed the light.
In case there is a red light camera you should be very careful with these situations.

This is exactly what happened to my bro in Lausanne in early 90s. The traffic light was green and he entered a small intersection (not a major road) which he was unable to proceed through. He got a fine by mail; still lucky cauz at that time the fine was only Fr. 80.-- (and not Fr. 250.--) and there was the following annotation typewritten and underlined by a red pen on the bottom of the traffic ticket: "This traffic offense won't be added to your criminal record".
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  #52  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:42
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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I guess that all my Porsche Sport Driving School courses have always paid off and saved me as well a couple of times of bad drivers.
Do they spend a lot of time covering traffic lights and pedestrian crossings in sports driving school?
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  #53  
Old 14.08.2015, 12:46
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If you crossed so clearly before the light changed, was there traffic just behind you while you were waiting on the other side, or had it stopped at the lights?

The long and short of it is that you were in the wrong, and you got caught. You may think you are a perfect driver, everybody does, but you're not. You learned a new thing today; be happy.
There is no such thing as a perfect Driver. You are right, living and learning. I will keep this one safe.
There were cars behind me, actually the nice officer told me the guy on my rear-end also got the ticket. He was underneath the traffic light while red.

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Do they spend a lot of time covering traffic lights and pedestrian crossings in sports driving school?
Not that much. This course is for safety driving and to react fast to avoid accidents.
I joined after a drunk driver hit me violently while I was stopped in a U turn back in the U.S. He got arrested of course.

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This is exactly what happened to my bro in Lausanne in early 90s. The traffic light was green and he entered a small intersection (not a major road) which he was unable to proceed through. He got a fine by mail; still lucky cauz at that time the fine was only Fr. 80.-- (and not Fr. 250.--) and there was the following annotation typewritten and underlined by a red pen on the bottom of the traffic ticket: "This traffic offense won't be added to your criminal record".
Looks exactly the same.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 15.08.2015 at 23:12. Reason: merging consecutive replies; try the multi-quote button (to the right of Quote). ;)
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  #54  
Old 14.08.2015, 13:21
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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So then tell me this, to clarify your statement:

I drove passed the traffic light as the light was green.

I should have seen that the traffic was not moving in front of me and stop at the traffic light even when the light was green?
Yes, that's correct. I you can't be sure that your exit is clear you must not enter the junction area. The fine is not for going through the red light, but for failing to make sure you could clear the junction before other traffic was allowed to enter.
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  #55  
Old 14.08.2015, 13:40
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Pay and move on??? Why?
Why should I pay and move on when I absolutely know that I did not run a traffic light?

I know how it works in here, I arrived here 8 years ago.

And in those 8 years, I NEVER had a single traffic fee.

So why should I accept what I genuinely think is a mistake?

If I was wrong, I would be paying this bill tomorrow morning, at the first hour.

I need an opinion of someone who understand what I should do.

At this point, I cannot accept a pay a move on.
Pay a lawyer 1500 CHF and argue your honor. Its what the court will tell you. And if you lose you will have to pay the court costs as well for contesting it. Which might be an additional 600 to 1000. That is the process. If they have you on camera and it shows a questionable situation, they will either agree with you and drop it, or invite you to the court option. There really isn't anything more to do. Plus bringing receipts as a way to defend you would have to be driving very fast to get things done, doesnt make for an argument in your favor. Infact it looks more to reason why you would be running a red.
Is it not possible you just make a mistake and need to be more careful next time? I am sure you believe you didnt do it. But I myself have made gross driving errors because I didnt see a sign or whatnot and counted myself lucky as I didnt harm anyone or myself.
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  #56  
Old 14.08.2015, 14:43
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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I should have seen that the traffic was not moving in front of me and stop at the traffic light even when the light was green?....Then the streets are going to be pure chaos.
You are not the only one who has a problem with this concept, I was surprised how many drivers here have it. The one who make chaos are actually those (like you) who try to squeeze trough blocked junctions. Finally everyone is blocking everyone.
btw. green lights give you allowance to go into the junction, it does not give you absolute rights to do it. One who was already there, before you come into it, can have a priority.
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  #57  
Old 14.08.2015, 15:08
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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...

But like he said, photo is a photo, does not matter if the time is not accurate ...
I still have no chances he said.
If the photo is clearly of your car, then of course the times are irrelevant. If the photo is not clear, then timings might become relevant.

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...

Given the objective is to ensure the junctions are kept free for crossing traffic (or in this case the crossing is kept free for pedestrians) sounds reasonable to me.


Box junctions in the UK work like this.
Not entirely. If you are, for example, turning right (in the UK) and your exit is clear, but there is on-coming traffic, you should enter the box, even though you have to wait. You only don't enter the box if your exit isn't clear.
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  #58  
Old 14.08.2015, 15:24
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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I guess that all my Porsche Sport Driving School courses have always paid off and saved me as well a couple of times of bad drivers.
For somebody who's been to "Porsche Sport Driving School, on more than one occasion, you seem to have a lot of issues, mostly around money from your posting history.......

Or was it the Porsche Pedal Car Driving School ?
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  #59  
Old 14.08.2015, 15:32
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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Hi Guys,

I need some help/ advice.

Today I got in my mail box a traffic ticket. NOT fun.
Cause: Running a red light in Bern.

Never in my life have I ever run a red light! I am the most careful driver. I kid you not.

Those are the very strange details:

1) Yes, I passed on the street but not at the time of the ticket.

2) Ticket has the time of 15:19.

3) I have the receipt of a purchase I made for my dog ( credit card proof and actual receipt ) at 15:35 - local Fessnapf store.

4) Driving from the point where I got the ticket to the dog store, takes 10 minutes as there is a construction site since June ( 8 the least ). I drive in this area every single day so I know.

5) I bought many things and every time I go to this store I take at least 20 minutes browsing around dog stuff. My dog loves to play with other dogs there.

6) Then I have other receipts after that but I guess that does not matter.

7) On the fee ticket says that the red line was crossed at 11:51 seconds. In my head that means that I saw the red line, did not care and crossed it anyways. %%&&!!

8) This is NOT the case, of course, as I crossed absolutely NO red lights. Maybe a yellow, but never a red.

What should I talk to the police to clarify this mistake? Fee is CHF250.00 and I am 1000% sure I did not cross a red light. 11.51 seconds is a lot in my opinion so I don't think that justifies also that they say the yellow became red while I was crossing over.

How can I prove that I did not run a red light? Do my receipts count to calculate the time?

If they have a photo, which they might have because I passed the street, how do I know that this photo was taken on a red light?

I want to better understand so I can go to the police and clarify this matter tomorrow.

Thank you very much!!

Maurat

No , your not ,I am
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Old 14.08.2015, 15:45
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Re: Running red light ticket - Police Mistake

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As I understand it, he'd gone through the crossing and was partly blocking the crossing on the opposite side.

I have somne sympathy; I won't say we've all done it, but I'd guess a lot of us have. I have. But expect to pay if you get caught doing it.
Oh, I didn't want to imply any statement on myself. I've certainly been there (albeit rarely), and also can't always avoid partially blocking a pedestrians crossing.

My post was due to his posts' vehemence, and because OP appears to not see the reasoning behind the fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the cameras only check until the middle line, perhaps less. So if you "only" block the traffic from the right you're usually fine - until those from the right get red after having had green. This should alwas give you enough time to move ahead if you happened to misjudge the situation on the crossings other side by just a car or two.
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