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  #21  
Old 14.01.2010, 15:17
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Re: Children Car Seat Laws in Switzerland

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And for kitty, here's a link to the same wording for Geneva, to smugly show your husband's colleague :

http://www.genevefamille.ch/N117625/...n-voiture.html

kodokan
Ha, ha! Thank you. He will greatly enjoy sharing that information

Last edited by kittyk8te; 14.01.2010 at 15:19. Reason: Clarity, included quote
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  #22  
Old 14.01.2010, 15:19
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Re: Children Car Seat Laws in Switzerland

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I can only think that this is the "critical" height for adult seatbelts to do their job correctly without injuring the passenger.

Our oldest son, between 10-20th percentile for height, is probably going to be in a car seat 'til he's 20!
If I am not mistaken this is the "critical" height for the airbag not to potentially hurt you if it deploys. This is a real problem for small elderly women because not only are they short but they have less sturdy bones due to the aging process. This is similar to the problem with smaller/younger children. They are also shorter and have more flexible bones. Try looking up the airbag data for small persons during deployment. It is a bit scary. Age has nothing to do with it, it is all about size and development.

BTW, my daughter is extremely fine boned and small and will use her car seat for a long time.
Brian.
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Old 14.01.2010, 15:20
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Our car manual shows 2 car seats in the back and one in the front too (where the iso-points are), but we can physically fit 3 seats in the back (baby, plus toddler seat and bigger kids seat). I have 3 Römer seats and the narrowest seat is the bigger kids seat (without harness), so most cars should be able to fit 3 of these, or not?
It depends on the car... of course.

We had a 3 series BMW old model, and the middle seat at the back could no way accommodate a child seat if the other two were occupied by other child seats. We had to get a bigger car with large middle seat when we had our third.

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If I am not mistaken this is the "critical" height for the airbag not to potentially hurt you if it deploys. This is a real problem for small elderly women because not only are they short but they have less sturdy bones due to the aging process. This is similar to the problem with smaller/younger children. They are also shorter and have more flexible bones. Try looking up the airbag data for small persons during deployment. It is a bit scary. Age has nothing to do with it, it is all about size and development.

BTW, my daughter is extremely fine boned and small and will use her car seat for a long time.
Brian.
Not sure if we aren't talking/writing at cross purposes. I agree if the child is sitting in the front seat, but the legislation applies equally to the rear seats.

In a front collision, there are no airbags in the rear, and the curtain (side impact airbags) won't deploy (assuming you have any in the car). An adult seat belt used by a short child would mean that the bealt is around the upper chest/neck/face area. This means that if you were violently pushed forward, as in the case of a front collision, the seat belt could do more harm than good - by crushing the upper airways, breaking the neck (God forbid), or slipping over the head resulting in pelvic injuries due to the lap part of the belt taking all the force - as they are primed to tighten to keep the passenger, ironically, out of harm's way. That's point I was trying to make about height.

I would also suggest that flexible bones in children are not the same as brittle bones in the elderly - a young growing bone will bend much more than a retiree's bone.

That aside, I don't think anyone is focusing on age per se, other than as the cut off for the legislation. My guess is that Swiss legistlators will have looked at average growth curves and decided that most (whatever that means to them, i.e. an acceptable risk) children aged 12 will reach the 150 cm mark, hence the age limit.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.01.2015 at 15:07. Reason: tidying after threads merged
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  #24  
Old 14.01.2010, 16:42
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Re: Children Car Seat Laws in Switzerland

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Not sure if we aren't talking/writing at cross purposes. I agree if the child is sitting in the front seat, but the legislation applies equally to the rear seats.

In a front collision, there are no airbags in the rear, and the curtain (side impact airbags) won't deploy (assuming you have any in the car). An adult seat belt used by a short child would mean that the bealt is around the upper chest/neck/face area. This means that if you were violently pushed forward, as in the case of a front collision, the seat belt could do more harm than good - by crushing the upper airways, breaking the neck (God forbid), or slipping over the head resulting in pelvic injuries due to the lap part of the belt taking all the force - as they are primed to tighten to keep the passenger, ironically, out of harm's way. That's point I was trying to make about height.

I would also suggest that flexible bones in children are not the same as brittle bones in the elderly - a young growing bone will bend much more than a retiree's bone.

That aside, I don't think anyone is focusing on age per se, other than as the cut off for the legislation. My guess is that Swiss legistlators will have looked at average growth curves and decided that most (whatever that means to them, i.e. an acceptable risk) children aged 12 will reach the 150 cm mark, hence the age limit.
Not, exactly. I am not saying that your assessment is incorrect. Rather, based on the various white papers I have read over the years, due to my daughter being at least 3 years developmentally delayed and therefor much smaller than she should be, I have come to the conclusion that most of the rules mandating size and age beyond about 8 years are based more on the potential danger to children due to airbags than seatbelt ride up. If the concern was really seatbelt placement then there are other ways to deal with this issue. For example, there are adapters that correctly position the seatbelt at the proper location on the individual in question. These adapters are very popular for "little people". These are full grown adults who are the correct mass and age and still don't meet the design specifications for safe use of seatbelts in automobiles. Although less than a meter and a half it would not be appropriate to expect them to use car seats as a legislative measure.

The bone flexibility issue is still important as an improperly restrained child can have stresses place on the bone structure that cause hyperextension, dislocations and other unpleasantness that would not normally happen to an older person.

On another note...

I have done a lot of research and have found that the best seat for long term usage by a small person seems to be the Recarro Sport. I have bought a few of these for my daughter. They are obscenely expensive but they are the best booster seat for the money, IMHO. They are the only booster seat that is actually made like a real seat in a car and therefor they are actually comfortable. They are also washable. The upholstery is removable microfibre and doesn't make the poor kid sweat in warm weather. They are also fully adjustable, height, shoulder width, and seat leg length. Altogether the best value for money that I have seen in 7 years.

Brian.
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Old 15.03.2010, 16:15
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Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

Just a quick reminder whilst there are still a couple of shopping weekends to go - don't forget that the law for the use of children's car seats in Switzerland will be changing from 1 April.

Now: kids under 7 must be in a child seat or booster
Then: kids under 12 OR under 1.5m tall must be in a child seat or booster

Expect a rush the last week of March, as people chat around the school gate and suddenly realise they need to buy the cheapest booster possible for their 11 yr old for the next 6 months. And I imagine the police will be over-zealous for at least the first couple of weeks.

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  #26  
Old 15.03.2010, 16:21
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

Just to clarify...

If you have a 12/13 year old who is under 1.5m tall (yes he's very short for his age) do you still need one?
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  #27  
Old 15.03.2010, 16:27
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

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Just to clarify...

If you have a 12/13 year old who is under 1.5m tall (yes he's very short for his age) do you still need one?
Legally no, just like with little old ladies, but obviously check the fit of the adult seatbelt around his neck and consider the risks of injury in the event of a crash. And perhaps have something with his proof of age, in case of being stopped.

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  #28  
Old 15.03.2010, 16:30
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

What if you have <12 year old who is >1.5m?
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Old 15.03.2010, 16:52
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

HAHAHA!! What if you are a midget? Are you bound to sitting in a child booster seat your whole life?
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Old 15.03.2010, 16:54
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

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What if you have <12 year old who is >1.5m?
Like mentioned it is compulsory if you are under 7, but between ages 7 and 12 it is obligatory if anyone under 1.5 M. Hope this clarifies
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  #31  
Old 15.03.2010, 16:58
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

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Just a quick reminder whilst there are still a couple of shopping weekends to go - don't forget that the law for the use of children's car seats in Switzerland will be changing from 1 April.

Now: kids under 7 must be in a child seat or booster
Then: kids under 12 OR under 1.5m tall must be in a child seat or booster

Expect a rush the last week of March, as people chat around the school gate and suddenly realise they need to buy the cheapest booster possible for their 11 yr old for the next 6 months. And I imagine the police will be over-zealous for at least the first couple of weeks.

kodokan

thanks for the info. Sorry to side track a bit but if I might tag on about the law in cab..... Do you (or anyone here) know that if I could use a baby carrier (the one on my shoulder) if I'm taking a cab and take the back passenger seat pls? I was told by a friend that it's OK but just want to make sure. My baby is 6 months.
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Old 15.03.2010, 16:58
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

can I just ask - my 8 year old is on a booster cushion (not full car seat) adn has been since we arrived here 3 years ago- is that still ok or do I need to go get another full car seat??
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  #33  
Old 15.03.2010, 17:16
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thanks for the info. Sorry to side track a bit but if I might tag on about the law in cab..... Do you (or anyone here) know that if I could use a baby carrier (the one on my shoulder) if I'm taking a cab and take the back passenger seat pls? I was told by a friend that it's OK but just want to make sure. My baby is 6 months.
This article (http://www.24heures.ch/actu/suisse/t...nts-2009-12-08) suggests that the law will also apply in taxis - the fine for non-compliance is 60chfs.

newtobasel - the TCS (Swiss motoring org) recommends a full seat, but under the law a booster cushion is fine, my 10 yr old is on one of those as he outgrew the shoulders on his 'real' car seat. The only exception is for seats that don't have a certain EU quality number/ code thingie on them - can't find the exact details now, but roughly speaking any seat purchased after 1995 will be absolutely fine.

(PS: Anyone know how to do multi-quotes across several previous posters?)

kodokan

Edit: Just found the number thingie, thanks to magic's link below: look for the ECE-R44 number, then check that the string of digits starts with 03 or 04. Ones that start with 01 or 02 are banned from April.

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What if you have <12 year old who is >1.5m?
That's fine: the law is that a seat is compulsory until either (a) the age of 12 is reached, ie, seats aren't necessary for 12 yr olds, or (b) a height of 1.5m is reached, so whichever happens first.

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Last edited by 3Wishes; 09.01.2015 at 15:08. Reason: tidying after threads merged
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  #34  
Old 15.03.2010, 17:32
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

Here is the link to TCS which has some pretty good information on the new law.
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Old 16.03.2010, 10:33
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

Just keep in mind there are some exceptions as well. A bit odd, but apparently if you have a middle car seat in back with only lap belt, it is exempt and a child sitting there does not need a car seat.
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Old 16.03.2010, 10:42
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

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Just keep in mind there are some exceptions as well. A bit odd, but apparently if you have a middle car seat in back with only lap belt, it is exempt and a child sitting there does not need a car seat.
Yes, but only for children aged between 7 and 12. I guess the thinking is that you can shuffle the kids around to make sure younger ones get the real seat belts.

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  #37  
Old 16.03.2010, 13:32
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

Any child on your lap or chest will in effect become an air bag in the event of a crash. Some cab companies do have car seats available in their cabs, I think you need to order one specially though.

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thanks for the info. Sorry to side track a bit but if I might tag on about the law in cab..... Do you (or anyone here) know that if I could use a baby carrier (the one on my shoulder) if I'm taking a cab and take the back passenger seat pls? I was told by a friend that it's OK but just want to make sure. My baby is 6 months.
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Old 17.03.2010, 00:00
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

This is the first line of the TCS write-up.

Ab dem 1. April 2010 müssen Kinder bis zwölf Jahre und 150 cm (was zuerst eintrifft) eine Kinderrückhaltevorrichtung (Kindersitz) verwenden.

This says child seat, not booster.

As I understand it, boosters (just the bottom bit) are no longer enough.

And with respect to holding your baby in the taxi - remember that they are not just thinking about how to avoid the police, the point of the exercise is that your child avoids dying or serious injury in a car accident.
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Old 17.03.2010, 00:06
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

TBH I don't think my almost 12 year old 145cm tall child would fit into a proper child seat - the back is surely too short?
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Old 17.03.2010, 00:08
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Re: Car seats for children - law change 1 April 2010

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TBH I don't think my almost 12 year old 145cm tall child would fit into a proper child seat - the back is surely too short?
yes, probably... our neighbour is under 150cm tall. She is 71.

I wonder if they make car seats to fit the drivers seat?
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