I am not sure if this is the right forum (I was thinking of putting this in the house forum or complaints corner but decided for internet)

So we bought a house a while ago, and this is registered at the 'registre de foncier' of the canton. All good and well. They even have a webpage where you can query the register. This is where it gets interesting (for the somewhat technically skilled among us ). For some reason you can only query for 2 months at a time (in the 2 cantons I looked).

However queries are encoded in the url in the usual way. Using something like 'wget' and some scripting (perl, python, etc...) I can make automated customized queries and I can download all the information on what has been sold in these cantons (e.g. by incrementing my 2 months interval for example). This alone I find somewhat shocking (and interesting ). The shocking part is the information I download. It gives the address, name, birthday, birthplace seller and buyer (or the company that bought it), and in one canton also the price.

It is interesting information just to analyze and have a detailed (very detailed) view of the market in price per region and even looking at the various age groups on what they paid. Once I download all information I can even check which of my colleagues and friends recently bought something and for what price. For example I found that the persons selling the house to us, sold some more property recently. I consider this private/personal information .

I can understand these are public records and that people can retrieve them. But not by systematically downloading the whole database from
all over the world! (I checked it and i could download it from the United States)

Am I somewhat paranoid in this, but to me this feels like invasion of my privacy?

Do people know of other instances where personal information is so readily available on the net in Switzerland?

John.

www.houseprices.co.uk

Someone I know knew the approximate date and partial address of his ex wifes new house purchase, and managed to establish from the site not only the address, but also the price she paid for the house, as it was the only one that changed hands during the time period. All UK public information, and searchable.

Now do you want to put your details on Facebook ?

dave

This site is still not ideal but it does not list the buyer/seller personal info.

In these 2 cantons I checked he just needs to download all data and do something like 'SELECT all house info WHERE buyer equal 'my ex wife' and voila. He will even find out who she bought it from and perhaps if she bought it with somebody else (e.g. her new lover )

John

I understand, but have never checked that in Switzerland tax information is publicly available...

Information being public is one thing. Being able to download it on the internet is another! You should at least have to make a request to access the information at a regional, cantonal, local, etc office and not from anywhere in the world.

If you upload any information, for any reason to the internet or allow it to be stored on a computer network, you lose control of it. Forever. Regardless of any assurances you may receive, it could be used without your consent in ways you have never dreamed-of: either through purchase of the details, piracy of the information or access from non-limiting juristictions. Think on.

I was reading just this weekend that than teenagers in UK that are given free transport cards will now be tracked and monitored in their journey to "combat vandalism and bad behaviour on public transport". What price privacy ?

dave

Well, so far Switzerland at least hasn't come as far as Sweden where you e.g. can find info about your neighbours income over the Internet.

All good and well, but as a house buyer (or seller) I did not ask for this information to be this public and I am sure there is no law that says it should be this public. If house buyers and sellers are told this happens with their information you think they would agree with that?

I can see the rationale of making this publicly accessible, but I am thinking they have been somewhat naive (like many organizations) with the potential security and privacy issue.

I have no problem with publicly accessible (e.g. I need to send a person an email or even have to go to an office and show my id) for this information

John.

It's funny how we as humans snort at people who "rabbit on too much" about their personal lives... How much they earn, how much their house cost, how old their car is, how much the government took off them in taxes last year. We deem these people boring and you wouldn't want to get stuck next to them at a party.

Now, how come we find it so delicious to scout around on the internet looking for this very information?

For me, anyone who looks at my Facebook pages will see that I like taking pictures of my little boy, I sent a bear hug to my friend in the UK and I have a daft video of someone being sick in a light aircraft.

I guess that all information in the "Grundbuch" (sorry, don't know the english or french name) is public. That is kind of the whole purpose of that institution. Thus, there is nothing stopping them from putting it on the internet if they want to. Public as public so to speak.

I disagree!

Public information is one thing. IE. in some countries birth certificates are public information. But you should have to make a request for the information. The WHOLE register should not be available for all and sundry to download it. Especially considering that if I went in to the office and asked them to provide me with a database of all the sales in the last x amount of time, they would say "No way".

I agree with you but I think that the law doesn't in many cases. The lawmakers simply didn't count with Internet when the laws were made in many cases.

Are you talking about the American Club again ? The answer to your question could be any one of Peer pressure, jealousy, envy, Schadenfreude and general nosiness.

Interacting with other people on forums and newsgroups is actually quite rewarding; compared with sharing banal details with anyone but family and close friends with whom you would share bodily-fluids, on pages such as Facebook.

dave

I see your point.

I wonder if the laws/statutes/etc state HOW the information can/should be shared (ie. Put in a request at commune, etc.). Also, I wonder if this stuff (notary acts, etc.) must be published. Sometimes there is a requirement that they be listed in the news papers, thus the requirement for publishing turns to the Internet.

I'm sure Richard knows all this stuff!!

How on earth did you know that.

As far as entries into the land registry are concerned there is actually quite a lot of information held including information on liens of all sorts. There are then two types of information access public and interested parties.

For Public information you can go into the local Gemeinde and request information on whatever you want as long as you pay the fee for the copy or alternatively can ask to see the public section of the book if it exists. Given that you don't even need to identify yourself there is no reason why this information should not be considered to be "freely available in the public domain" and hence why not place it on the internet - many cantons have projects to do exactly this, given it is Switzerland probably a fair few gemeindes/communes as well... Also note that this information wrt prices might not reflect value as there are quite a few sales that go between friends and family where the price could be inflated to ensure future tax liabilities are reduced and to create capital from nothing...

For the private you need the permission of the owner or their representative ie that you are interested in buying the property. There are also very valid reasons why you should have these rights such as if the liens are not repaid at the time of sale they remain on the property ie the seller is free and you as the buyer are suddenly endebted. Hence to ensure all liens are satisfied is a good reason to know which ones exist...

While you are on holiday in say, Sweden, with your car somebody can put the registration number into the appropriate website, find out your address and empty the house for you.

Taxable income is visible in Switzerland as well, I suspect its not viewable over the Internet because it's too much bother for the gemeinden to organise.

Hans

The same is true in Switzerland. The Zurich street traffic office website allows 5 free look ups of ZH number plates...

Unless you opt out...
http://www.stva.zh.ch/internet/ds/st...=1200479224253

John

I am surprised, as you are, about this.
Are you going to tell us the canton(s) that leak?
In Zurich one can get the buyer's name and address but nothing else as far
as I can tell, and again it is for a fee.
http://www.notariate.zh.ch/gru_for.php
And in UK price paid but not the buyer's personal details.

Thanks for the post.
Andy

Most interesting because the name and address of number plate holders being public is a part of the road traffic law... Goes back to 1976 and has never been repealed. It does not say however that the information will be public, just that it can be public without recourse...