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Old 18.01.2017, 11:43
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Re: The Brexit referendum thread: potential consequences for GB, EU and the Brits in

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Ultimately, it is about national sovereignty.
What it all comes down to is whether you could envisage a European nation or not and you would not as you do not feel you have enough in common. Unfortunately this translates to xenophobia all too often.
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National sovereignty strikes me as a universally recognised principle.
Depends on what you mean by sovereignty. Pretty much every nation on the planet has sacrificed some degree of sovereignty in return for diplomatic gain. Whether it is in relation the ICJ, trade agreements, border agreements, UN, NATO, and so on. Also many nations are parts of greater unions - for example, Scotland doesn't exactly have all it's sovereignty, does it?

So, sovereignty is not an immutable principle and claiming it is is simply false.
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Whereas the EU's 4 pillars are the ideals of the organisation. They aren't really on par, and I wouldn't consider an ideal to supercede a principle.
If you are seeking to build a European nation (the Eurosceptic nightmare scenario), then they are core components of any European sovereignty - not ideals on a wish list but essential principles.

So these may be unimportant ideals for you, but you don't share the same aims as some Europhiles, so unsurprisingly it's really just your opinion again.
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I think one can trade off an ideal for pragmatism, but generally inadvisable to trade off a principle.
Well, that's just bollocks; just you claiming "my principles are valid and I judge yours not to be". I'd just as easily suggest that what you've argued are principles are simply petty remnants of tribalism that are frankly dangerous anachronisms, better off jettisoned in the modern World.
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