Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Business & entrepreneur  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09.06.2011, 12:39
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vaud
Posts: 25
Groaned at 8 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Gema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeable
Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Hi everyone,

I have the opportunity to work on a finance project on Swiss territory for a UK client. I am resident in Switzerland and holder of B permit linked to my partner´s stating "sans activité lucratif". I would like to know if there is an opportunity for me to work as independent/freelance invoicing the client from Switzerland in CHF, what are the administrative steps and how long any necessary registration could take. The client might be calling already next week to start some work, so I am not sure how to proceed with my work status and whether I can already do some job for him. Just for info, recently I have registered with ORP (RAV), but I receive no unemployment benefits.

Would be grateful for any shared experience or hints.

Thank you in advance
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09.06.2011, 18:31
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Hi everyone,

I have the opportunity to work on a finance project on Swiss territory for a UK client. I am resident in Switzerland and holder of B permit linked to my partner´s stating "sans activité lucratif". I would like to know if there is an opportunity for me to work as independent/freelance invoicing the client from Switzerland in CHF, what are the administrative steps and how long any necessary registration could take. The client might be calling already next week to start some work, so I am not sure how to proceed with my work status and whether I can already do some job for him. Just for info, recently I have registered with ORP (RAV), but I receive no unemployment benefits.

Would be grateful for any shared experience or hints.

Thank you in advance
I would go & speak to the RAV, they should be able to tell you whats alowed.

What is the reason for "sans activité lucratif" , it your partner on a Tax deal ?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09.06.2011, 19:05
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,993
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

It just means that she doesn't have a job. I had that as well when I first arrived in CH. When I got a job they changed it.

Anyway, you need to go down to the commune & the ORP and tell them that you want to work as a freelancer. They will tell you what you need to do. It shouldn't take to long. You tell the ORP because they will tell you how you need to do this. The commune will make note in your record/permit that you now have an job.

Talk to ORP first.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09.06.2011, 22:45
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
It just means that she doesn't have a job..
Possibly, however without all the information I can't be sure, which is why I asked.

'B' permits can be 'bought' by wealtly foreigners wo want to live in CH and be taxed on a lump sum basis. Their permits are '"sans activité lucratif" otherwise their world wide income & assets become taxable.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10.06.2011, 02:58
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,993
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Possibly, however without all the information I can't be sure, which is why I asked.

'B' permits can be 'bought' by wealtly foreigners wo want to live in CH and be taxed on a lump sum basis. Their permits are '"sans activité lucratif" otherwise their world wide income & assets become taxable.
She's an EU citizen thus no need to buy her permit & has the right to work.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10.06.2011, 03:36
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
She's an EU citizen thus no need to buy her permit & has the right to work.
Many EU citizens buy non working 'B' permits. They just want to pay less tax.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10.06.2011, 06:33
swissbob
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Anyway, you need to go down to the commune & the ORP and tell them that you want to work as a freelancer. They will tell you what you need to do. It shouldn't take to long. You tell the ORP because they will tell you how you need to do this. The commune will make note in your record/permit that you now have an job.

Not quite as simple as that. In order to be self employed one needs to have multiple clients. In these situations the op may be forced down the line of using a payroll company to create an employment relationship. Otherwise, the Swiss client may get into trouble for using disguised employees.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10.06.2011, 06:39
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,993
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Many EU citizens buy non working 'B' permits. They just want to pay less tax.
Fine you can stick with that scenario if you like however unlikely it is.

Quote:
View Post
Not quite as simple as that. In order to be self employed one needs to have multiple clients. In these situations the op may be forced down the line of using a payroll company to create an employment relationship. Otherwise, the Swiss client may get into trouble for using disguised employees.
It says right in the title and in the thread the client is in the UK.

I don't understand why you guys want to make the OPs situation out like it's complicated. It's not.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10.06.2011, 07:19
Nev
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Fine you can stick with that scenario if you like however unlikely it is.
Fatmanfilms's scenario isn't at all unlikely miniMia. I know several EU citizens with forfait tax deals who have a similar "sans activaté lucratif" stamped on their permits. Of course, as EU citizens, they have the right to work here. But if they do they would have to give up the lump sum forfait arrangement.

Interestingly though, unlike the OP's case, in every forfait case I know of, their spouse's and dependant's permits have no such restrictions on working. Why the circumstances are different in the OP's case I can't begin to guess. Of course, there may be no forfait involved in their case.

I know for sure that there are some exceptions permitted to the "sans activaté lucratif" restriction - like being a member of a board. However the role must be non executive and not full time. There are probably other exceptions, but I don't know if ad hoc freelance work for an overseas client is one of them. I think the exceptions are also discretionary so the OP should check with the immigration authorities. They may okay the project work if it's a one off. They may not. I don't know.

Bottom line is that we don't know what the precise circumstances are here, since the OP hasn't said why there is a restriction against working, so nobody can really advise the OP other than to consult the immigration authorities.


Quote:
View Post
It says right in the title and in the thread the client is in the UK.
True, but it also says the finance project is on Swiss territory.


Quote:
View Post
She's an EU citizen thus no need to buy her permit & has the right to work.
Correct. But she says her current permit is linked to her partner's. If the immigration authorities won't show flexibility under her dependant's permit, then in order to work, she would have to renounce her dependant's permit and apply for a permit in her own right and to do that, as Swissbob points out, her employment would have to meet the guidelines. To be successful, as a minimum I would guess that she would have to demonstrate that she could financially support herself on the earnings of that employment since she would no longer be dependant on her partner in the eyes of Immigration. And her new individual permit would only be valid as long as she remained in employment here.

Last edited by Nev; 10.06.2011 at 08:06.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10.06.2011, 11:36
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vaud
Posts: 25
Groaned at 8 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Gema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeable
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Thank you all for your valuable insights and ideas. There is no tax deal involved, I joined my partner who has a job here but have not found a job myself yet. I will definitely talk to ORP to see if there is any way to proceed with the project. I have already talked to the Commune and was told that I should apport a "motivation letter" and the contract with the client (although first they mentioned I need to apport Business plan, then I explained that it is the client who would be managind the job and I would be acting more as an intermediary for a one-off project).
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10.06.2011, 20:05
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Thank you all for your valuable insights and ideas. There is no tax deal involved, I joined my partner who has a job here but have not found a job myself yet. I will definitely talk to ORP to see if there is any way to proceed with the project. I have already talked to the Commune and was told that I should apport a "motivation letter" and the contract with the client (although first they mentioned I need to apport Business plan, then I explained that it is the client who would be managind the job and I would be acting more as an intermediary for a one-off project).
I suspect the contract will be a long way from a normal Swiss contract of employment, they won't be happy I fear.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10.06.2011, 20:13
Mowvich's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Genève
Posts: 1,428
Groaned at 28 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,308 Times in 607 Posts
Mowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
Thank you all for your valuable insights and ideas. There is no tax deal involved, I joined my partner who has a job here but have not found a job myself yet. I will definitely talk to ORP to see if there is any way to proceed with the project. I have already talked to the Commune and was told that I should apport a "motivation letter" and the contract with the client (although first they mentioned I need to apport Business plan, then I explained that it is the client who would be managind the job and I would be acting more as an intermediary for a one-off project).
I think you should clarify to them you're working as a "Consultant" NOT "starting your own business", business plan and motivation letter is required when you're starting your own business afaik
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10.06.2011, 20:16
Mowvich's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Genève
Posts: 1,428
Groaned at 28 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 1,308 Times in 607 Posts
Mowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond reputeMowvich has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
I suspect the contract will be a long way from a normal Swiss contract of employment, they won't be happy I fear.
I don't think this have any relevancy to them, consultancy agreement have lots of differences from CDI, if it's a UK contract, the only issue is, if she's getting paid from the UK, taxes will be paid in the UK but she still have to declare it here with evidence of UK tax payments to adjust it, so i have been told by the taxation in Geneva
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10.06.2011, 21:29
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vaud
Posts: 25
Groaned at 8 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Gema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeable
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
I suspect the contract will be a long way from a normal Swiss contract of employment, they won't be happy I fear.
May I ask why do you think they wont be happy if I might be bringing new investment and business to Switzerland?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10.06.2011, 21:34
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Vaud
Posts: 25
Groaned at 8 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Gema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeableGema is considered knowledgeable
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
I think you should clarify to them you're working as a "Consultant" NOT "starting your own business", business plan and motivation letter is required when you're starting your own business afaik
Thanks, good to know.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10.06.2011, 21:35
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 9,993
Groaned at 101 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 9,106 Times in 4,522 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Regarding the "tax deal"; I never said such deals don't exist, however did anyone actually read the woman's profile and other posts? I have seen her other posts and remember her search for work. Let's be practical here. I think she would know if she had any sort of tax deal that would not allow her to work and wouldn't be actually looking for work if that were the case.

Her "sans activité lucratif" was most likely put on her permit because she DOESN'T work not because she CAN'T work. I got the same thing when I moved to CH to be with my partner who was working and who was technically my sponsor. When I got a job they changed it.

Let's be clear, her "dependent" status means that her partner is responsible for her and she can't go collect social benefits. It doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to work.

Why everyone always wants to muddy the waters with every possible (unlikely) scenario and try to undermine the woman's employment opportunities is really beyond me.


Back to Gema: Take the contract back to the commune and to the ORP. ORP will probably be the best resource as to how to go about setting yourself up was a freelancer, if this particular project is set up correctly, how to deal with taxes, etc. They may even give you the forms for "interim work" if that works out for you in your situation and if you are really really lucky the might even send you to a class on how to be a freelancer.

Anyway, I've put in my 2c.
__________________

Last edited by miniMia; 10.06.2011 at 22:49. Reason: typos. eeks! ;)
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 10.06.2011, 22:32
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
May I ask why do you think they wont be happy if I might be bringing new investment and business to Switzerland?
If your bringing investment to Switzerland that's fine, will that be guaranteed in the contract?

As mentioned earlier in the thread you will have to show that you can support yourself from the contract, if your being guaranteed 120,000 a year you don't need to worry.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11.06.2011, 13:11
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Rorbas
Posts: 46
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts
MissScotland has no particular reputation at present
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

I might be looking at this too simplistically but I also work freelance for a UK client and I live outside Zurich.

My husband has a B permit.

I declared this working arrangement at the local registration office who asked for a copy of my work contract/agreement. The faxed it to the Swiss Tax Authorities. I am paid in British Sterling into a UK held bank account but am liable to pay tax in Switzerland. I am not required to pay tax in the UK so long as I do not return to the UK to work for more than 90 days in a year - otherwise I would be required to declare dual residency and would be liable for taxation in the UK too.

As such I do not show UK VAT on my invoices and declare on them that I am not registerd for tax in the UK.

Does that help at all - I do only work 85 hours a year for this client but around 2/3rds of these involve me travelling back to the UK.

Catriona
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MissScotland for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 11.06.2011, 14:20
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 18,369
Groaned at 342 Times in 273 Posts
Thanked 17,953 Times in 9,726 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Working as freelance for UK client with B permit "sans activite lucratif"

Quote:
View Post
I might be looking at this too simplistically but I also work freelance for a UK client and I live outside Zurich.

My husband has a B permit.

I declared this working arrangement at the local registration office who asked for a copy of my work contract/agreement. The faxed it to the Swiss Tax Authorities. I am paid in British Sterling into a UK held bank account but am liable to pay tax in Switzerland. I am not required to pay tax in the UK so long as I do not return to the UK to work for more than 90 days in a year - otherwise I would be required to declare dual residency and would be liable for taxation in the UK too.

As such I do not show UK VAT on my invoices and declare on them that I am not registerd for tax in the UK.

Does that help at all - I do only work 85 hours a year for this client but around 2/3rds of these involve me travelling back to the UK.

Catriona
If your freelance contract is in the UK, you don't need a Swiss work permit to do the work. I doubt with just 85 hours work you would be over the VAT rigistration limit.
If you were living in the UK with UK passport you could work upto 90 days in CH without a permit, if it's just a few days at the time you don't even need to register.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Contact link on "Database error" page not working. Upthehatters2008 Forum support 5 05.04.2011 16:18
BUG: "Go to first new post" - Incorrect hover text or button not working. Upthehatters2008 Forum support 4 16.03.2011 17:03
Einzelfirma with Sans Activite permit L Schukin Finance/banking/taxation 0 02.11.2010 06:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0