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Old 04.11.2011, 11:08
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Changes are coming for self employed

Dear ALL,

I just stumbled across this article: (in German)
http://www.20min.ch/finance/news/story/13041443

In an essence, its about some firms abusing the free person trade agreement between EU and CH. For this forum of interest is the end, it seems new laws coming up to fight against bogus entrepreneurs, also freelancers and self employed people that actually aren't. And it seems there are quite a few here.

Quote 25.09.11:
Auch der Bundesrat hat Massnahmen ergriffen: Am Freitag wurde ein Gesetz vorgelegt, mit dem Scheinselbständige bekämpft werden soll. Selbständigerwerbende sollen neu ihre Selbständigkeit beweisen, sonst werden sie gesperrt und gebüsst.

Maybe some need to wrap it up a bit.

All the best

George
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Old 04.11.2011, 12:23
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

Yes me for instance, but it works, luckly my "clients" are in Germany so I can say: "screw you, Bundesrat" let´s see however who has the last laugh when the taxman calls.
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Old 04.11.2011, 12:28
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

Not all of us speak German. Thanks for the interesting link, but a Google translation might have been helpful.

"The Bundesrat has taken measures as well: on Friday a law was submitted with the purpose of fighting bogus freelancers/self-employed people. They will in future be required to demonstrate proof of their self-employed status, otherwise they will be shut down and fined."

(I tidied up the Google version a bit but it still isn't what you'd call accurate. Hopefully someone with a better command of German will be able to clarify any major errors!)

Wasn't aware that there were any bogus freelancers on here - guess you live and learn.
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Old 04.11.2011, 13:59
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

Well, don't nail me on the bogus, maybe phony or pseudo?

But we know him/her, the one with one customer the whole year?
The one that gets no holiday paid, has no rights for welfare, no rights for unemployment money, no salary during sickness or accident?
The one that, for short term benefit, sales out all social achievements of the last 50 years. The one that leads us back down the road to villeinage?
The one that works here for CHF 3-5 an hour, does not pay ANY taxes or contribute anything to social security! The one that take my job away or pressurizes the job market so much that I as sole income can not afford my two kids anymore and force me, to sell them on eBay!

You name it!
May I suggest: modern slavery, villeinage, social exploitation?

OK, sorry, its the one that tries hard to meet months ends, who has his expenses to pay and just want to be left alone? The one that is able to live without social net, has the power, energy and will to survive on its own? Right?

A customer from my accountant just got refused recently her status as self employed because she has only 5 customers (she gives courses for water gym). All her clients gets sued from SVA for avoiding a labour contract. At least her customers are village entities (communes) who can afford the penalty!

The only reason I quoted the original German text because such links have the tendency to disappear. I think everyone here is able to babelfish it if they want/need too.

George
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Old 04.11.2011, 14:24
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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Well, don't nail me on the bogus, maybe phony or pseudo?

But we know him/her, the one with one customer the whole year?
The one that gets no holiday paid, has no rights for welfare, no rights for unemployment money, no salary during sickness or accident?
The one that, for short term benefit, sales out all social achievements of the last 50 years. The one that leads us back down the road to villeinage?
The one that works here for CHF 3-5 an hour, does not pay ANY taxes or contribute anything to social security! The one that take my job away or pressurizes the job market so much that I as sole income can not afford my two kids anymore and force me, to sell them on eBay!

Do you have a bundle price or are they going seperatly?

You name it!
May I suggest: modern slavery, villeinage, social exploitation?

OK, sorry, its the one that tries hard to meet months ends, who has his expenses to pay and just want to be left alone? The one that is able to live without social net, has the power, energy and will to survive on its own? Right?

Yes! I pay my Einkommensteuer in CH, I pay my own Progres my own Helvetica I take on all my own Lohnnebenkosten, for this I charge my customers X-amount a month. The MwSt is taken care of by the customers but I must refer to §13b of the German UStG in my bills, because the MwSt tax is paid in Germany the CHian taxman is not interested in it and I do not cause a blip on the radar.
When I started this I told the RAV and went to the taxman, both were the opinion that it is borderline but still legal, maybe a bit of a grey area, I still fall under the 400 day rule for unemployment benefit and after the end of the grace period I will be paying my own unemployment costs.

A customer from my accountant just got refused recently her status as self employed because she has only 5 customers (she gives courses for water gym). All her clients gets sued from SVA for avoiding a labour contract. At least her customers are village entities (communes) who can afford the penalty!

The only reason I quoted the original German text because such links have the tendency to disappear. I think everyone here is able to babelfish it if they want/need too.

George
Now I know that there are people out there who misuse the system but please do not haul everybody over the same coals.
By the way did I mention that I have 30 days paid holiday?
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:23
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

Hmm. I don't really like any of those words. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you can't be "genuinely" self-employed if you only have a couple of customers? Which would be a right bugger for people who only sell to a particular minority type of customer (but in amounts sufficient to live on), or who are just setting up a business and have only got two or three customers so far, or who are indeed freelancing part-time to keep their hands busy but don't have to make both ends meet because their partner is the primary breadwinner, and therefore don't need loads of customers.

(I share your dislike of people who charge ridiculously low amounts for their services though!)

Would be more interesting if there was a link to the actual text of the proposed law. But the article itself is primarily about the problem of Lohndumping.

By the way, if you put up a text in Hungarian, as a non-Hungarian speaker I can babelfish it (well, probably) but I will have no way of knowing whether babelfish is giving me an accurate translation, or of making much sense of the translation it does give me. And frankly, I wouldn't want to rely on that, given that the original babelfish version of the text you put up was:

"Also the Upper House of Parliament seized measures: On Friday a law was submitted, with which illusoryindependent was to be fought. Independent-recruiting are to prove their independence again, otherwise they are paid for closed and."
Which is why machine translation isn't going to take over the world just yet.
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Old 04.11.2011, 15:38
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

@ slammer
no way I put all in the same pocket. I have been a "foreigner" myself the last 20 years. I started several times my own company from scratch and I know much you have to struggle at the beginning. And the bad ones, for them these new laws are introduced, are not in this forum.

But what I also see is that we bit by bit cutting off our social achievements. And this really annoys me. I am not praying social welfare, but social fairness.

But we are going complete off-topic as from now on we have to discus where we are going wrong with our money society and how to do it better!


I have two "for sale", boy and a girl, both with latest updates made, almost brand new. Not much used (yet). Prefer to get rid of the older model as it comes to conflict issues. However, still some cute effects visible.
Available immediate, best offer goes... See attachment
Maybe a trade for 30 days holidays?
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changes-coming-self-employed-steven.jpg  
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Old 04.11.2011, 16:02
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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@ slammer
no way I put all in the same pocket. I have been a "foreigner" myself the last 20 years. I started several times my own company from scratch and I know much you have to struggle at the beginning. And the bad ones, for them these new laws are introduced, are not in this forum.

But what I also see is that we bit by bit cutting off our social achievements. And this really annoys me. I am not praying social welfare, but social fairness.

But we are going complete off-topic as from now on we have to discus where we are going wrong with our money society and how to do it better!


I have two "for sale", boy and a girl, both with latest updates made, almost brand new. Not much used (yet). Prefer to get rid of the older model as it comes to conflict issues. However, still some cute effects visible.
Available immediate, best offer goes... See attachment
Maybe a trade for 30 days holidays?
Nahh! I always found they have too high maintainance, still do according to ex-girlfiend.
The SVA whined and spat out their dummy and refused to accept my Selbständigkeit untill the taxman told them to can it as they and only they decide who is Selbständig and that I should carry on.
In one way it is comforting to have the Tax office behind you but at the same time it is extremly, extremly disturbing
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Old 04.11.2011, 20:20
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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Hmm. I don't really like any of those words. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you can't be "genuinely" self-employed if you only have a couple of customers? Which would be a right bugger for people who only sell to a particular minority type of customer (but in amounts sufficient to live on), or who are just setting up a business and have only got two or three customers so far, or who are indeed freelancing part-time to keep their hands busy but don't have to make both ends meet because their partner is the primary breadwinner, and therefore don't need loads of customers.
The above describes me and I am more than a little worried. Before going on maternity I had more than 5 clients, at the moment I just have the one as I dont have time with the little one to take all my clients back again (for now). I am a bit worried if this will impact me and when
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Old 04.11.2011, 22:26
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

No, i wouldn't worry too much. If you don't relay as it's main source of income then I don't think they will investigate. This said, if the pension funds, respective the AHV comes more under pressure they definitely will start to look closer to find loop holes. Sole entrepreneurs also pay AHV, but on a much lower rate. Plus you are not anymore eligible to tax deduct a lot of expenses as you could do now (your entire tea, coffee and milk consumption, all cleaning stuff and all these things I hope you deduct...)
This said, I still would keep an eye open.

I think it's like Swissoconnors mention it, more forged as a weapon against the troublesome cheapest of the cheapest (Lohndumping), ruining income for the rest of us.

Before I left Switzerland in 1990's this was also was an issue at the time as many IT Consultants suddenly became freelancers, having only 2-3 customers. Well, back then it was more about the inability to terminate a labor contract. The hire and fire mentality like today where not possible then. If you employed someone, you hired him/her for eternity. I remember a case, where an accountant pickpocket the petty cash, around 100,000. Was no reason to fire him! One of the court rulings was that he in his late 60's, would not be able to find another job anymore (still had the right for a nice resume). End of story was a two year fully paid immediate termination of his working contract! As a freelancer a termination was possible within an hour! And they could sue you for anything that went wrong.
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Old 04.11.2011, 22:48
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

I pay AHV, I work in house 3 days and I earn more than pocket money (sorry forgot to mention that)

Hmmm recently the auditors at wok took my invoices away and wanted to check i was paying AHV (which of course I am) I fear the net may be closing in anyway. I think my client may employ me if it became an issue (I hope)
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Old 05.11.2011, 02:21
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

Well Nickers,
the IT guys at the time where charging somewhere 500.-/hrs
Isn't a nickel and dime ether...

George
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Old 05.11.2011, 04:51
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

People with 5 clients get refused self employed status? OMG! I was lucky to get mine then. I don't understand what this new law is or when it is supposed to come into effect but why can't I be left in peace to make however little money I make as a self employed person? I am not dependant on any state handouts or social safety net so why all this aggro from SVA?
Is it about number of clients or amount of money earned? So can I have 10 clients for the year who pay me just CHF100 compared to 2 clients who pay me 5000?

Jesus I had a slow year this year and I am worried that they might take my self employed status away. If that happens then what am I supposed to do? How do I work with new clients? I have no intention or desire of being a 9 to 5 worker. How can they deny me the right to make an honest living? If someone gets their self employed status taken away then do they get social benefits? If not then why mess with my livelihood?

Can someone clarify? I am an EU citizen with C permit married to local. Do I need to lie and say I made more than I did this year so that my self employed status stays intact? I am expecting a better year in 2012 and it would be catastrophic if they strip me off my status. I wish I had not visited this website and read this thread as I can't sleep now.
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Old 05.11.2011, 05:02
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

go sleep. not worth for headache yet.

It has nothing to do with the amount of earnings, or the amount of clients.
(well 2nd not entirely through). They quickly become aware if you're "real". Letterhead, business cards, web-site, office etc. The one man - one customer type simple doesn't setup the same, missing advertising, never anywhere present.

They are not that stupid, like cops, after a while in business they can smell the fish. but the soup isn't eaten yet, not even cooked!

...and actually, the laws are already in place, a long time. They just want more grip.
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Old 05.11.2011, 05:06
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

I will try and sleep. Will probably have a nightmare though.
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Old 05.11.2011, 05:27
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

I can make you tired - have 2 kids for sale.

They will make you sleep like a stone - guaranteed!!!!!
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Old 05.11.2011, 09:25
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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go sleep. not worth for headache yet.

It has nothing to do with the amount of earnings, or the amount of clients.
(well 2nd not entirely through). They quickly become aware if you're "real". Letterhead, business cards, web-site, office etc. The one man - one customer type simple doesn't setup the same, missing advertising, never anywhere present.

They are not that stupid, like cops, after a while in business they can smell the fish. but the soup isn't eaten yet, not even cooked!

...and actually, the laws are already in place, a long time. They just want more grip.
Not fully understanding what you are saying here. So if you don't have business cards, letterheads websites etc.. and just have one client then this is not good?

What is the issue anyway with them not wanting people to work on a self employed basis for one client? are they missing out on taxes or something?
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Old 05.11.2011, 09:49
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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Not fully understanding what you are saying here. So if you don't have business cards, letterheads websites etc.. and just have one client then this is not good?

What is the issue anyway with them not wanting people to work on a self employed basis for one client? are they missing out on taxes or something?
Tax evasion & fraudulant reduction in AHV contributions. However the employee is entitled to uneplpoyment benefits.
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Old 05.11.2011, 09:59
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

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Tax evasion & fraudulant reduction in AHV contributions. However the employee is entitled to uneplpoyment benefits.
But I pay AHV and I pay tax
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Old 05.11.2011, 11:23
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Re: Changes are coming for self employed

If you're employed, then AHV is deducted from your taxes, your employer pays some AHV, you have a different pension regime, and you're restricted on the expenses you can claim.

If you're self-employed, then you pay AHV - the overall take is less than for an employee, you can offset more against pension and you can claim more expenses.

That's why they don't like people being employed. I work through my own GmbH, so they don't have the same problem with me.
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