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Old 03.10.2012, 18:16
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UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

Hi,

I know this has been asked before, but there is an absolute wealth of information out there, and I'm sure some bright spark on here will be able to help me in a more efficient manner.

Basically, I may very soon be in a position to have a 12 month contract with a company, to work for them as an employee in name, but as an external contractor in terms of salary structure etc (headcount restrictions, etc etc etc). This means the pension contributions would be borne by me, so we agree on a daily billable rate, I invoice them every month and Bob's your Uncle.

This will necessitate myself setting myself up as a sole trader - Peter 1875 Consulting, for example. I will have a residents permit (exact type TBC as I applied when I didn't have a job and need to go and see my soon-to-be amigos at the migration office to answer a couple of questions) and have a flat sorted out etc.

1) I won't be earning > 100,000 CHF a year, so no need to register with the chamber of commerce, right? So where is my initial point of contact to get the forms I will doubtless need to fill out? My Kreisburo? The Rathaus? Or somewhere else?

2) I understand that the contributions to the 2 of the 3 "pillars" of the Swiss pension system are obligatory, and in my setup would be borne by me, so I think that makes me "self employed" from a pensions POV. Again, same rough question as above. Who do I get in touch with to make sure I'm all above board and contributing the right amount to the right place each month?

3) I have just set-up a basic, personal bank account with PostFinance. Can I use that bank account to receive payment from my employer (I assume I can) and also to be my business account - i.e. the one from which I would pay my contributions? Or do I have to set up a separate business account in the name of "Peter 1875 Consulting" - for example - for that?

Many thanks in advance - I'll keeping looking online, but if any EU (or ideally UK) citizen has set themself up as a sole trader for contractual work purposes and knows the answers to these questions, all advice would be greatly appreciated.

Peter 1875
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Old 03.10.2012, 18:26
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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Hi,

I know this has been asked before, but there is an absolute wealth of information out there, and I'm sure some bright spark on here will be able to help me in a more efficient manner.

Basically, I may very soon be in a position to have a 12 month contract with a company, to work for them as an employee in name, but as an external contractor in terms of salary structure etc (headcount restrictions, etc etc etc). This means the pension contributions would be borne by me, so we agree on a daily billable rate, I invoice them every month and Bob's your Uncle.

This will necessitate myself setting myself up as a sole trader - Peter 1875 Consulting, for example. I will have a residents permit (exact type TBC as I applied when I didn't have a job and need to go and see my soon-to-be amigos at the migration office to answer a couple of questions) and have a flat sorted out etc.

1) I won't be earning > 100,000 CHF a year, so no need to register with the chamber of commerce, right? So where is my initial point of contact to get the forms I will doubtless need to fill out? My Kreisburo? The Rathaus? Or somewhere else?

2) I understand that the contributions to the 2 of the 3 "pillars" of the Swiss pension system are obligatory, and in my setup would be borne by me, so I think that makes me "self employed" from a pensions POV. Again, same rough question as above. Who do I get in touch with to make sure I'm all above board and contributing the right amount to the right place each month?

3) I have just set-up a basic, personal bank account with PostFinance. Can I use that bank account to receive payment from my employer (I assume I can) and also to be my business account - i.e. the one from which I would pay my contributions? Or do I have to set up a separate business account in the name of "Peter 1875 Consulting" - for example - for that?

Many thanks in advance - I'll keeping looking online, but if any EU (or ideally UK) citizen has set themself up as a sole trader for contractual work purposes and knows the answers to these questions, all advice would be greatly appreciated.

Peter 1875
The AHV office will not accept that you are self employed, your taking no risk , have one client & get paid every month. From their point of view your just an employee trying to avoid social costs.

You can find a payroll company to employ you, however they will charge for the service.
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Old 03.10.2012, 18:31
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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The AHV office will not accept that you are self employed, your taking no risk , have one client & get paid every month. From their point of view your just an employee trying to avoid social costs.

You can find a payroll company to employ you, however they will charge for the service.
Yep I'm afraid FMF is right..

Only sure way round it is to set up a GmbH and that employs you and sell your time services as a consultant from the company; downside is it will cost you 20k to set up before you even get to the pension and AHV side...
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Old 03.10.2012, 18:42
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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The AHV office will not accept that you are self employed, your taking no risk , have one client & get paid every month. From their point of view your just an employee trying to avoid social costs.

You can find a payroll company to employ you, however they will charge for the service.
"Avoid social costs"?? If I was doing that, why would I go actively contacting the AVH office?

Surely if I pay the correct % of my income in as any other sole trader Joe Bloggs would and show them a copy of the contract that exists - hopefully - between myself and the company I'd be "contracting" my services to (so they knew how much I was earning/month) then there'd be no particular problem?

Or are pension contributions lower for sole traders vs "full fat" employees of a company? If that's the case, then I can see their point at a push, but it's not as if I've chosen to make the potential offer of employment on a "external contractor only" basis.
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Old 03.10.2012, 18:48
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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"Avoid social costs"?? If I was doing that, why would I go actively contacting the AVH office?

Surely if I pay the correct % of my income in as any other sole trader Joe Bloggs would and show them a copy of the contract that exists - hopefully - between myself and the company I'd be "contracting" my services to (so they knew how much I was earning/month) then there'd be no particular problem?

Or are pension contributions lower for sole traders vs "full fat" employees of a company? If that's the case, then I can see their point at a push, but it's not as if I've chosen to make the potential offer of employment on a "external contractor only" basis.
Your an employee end of story. That's how it works in Switzerland, you will have to get used to things being done differently here. This is to prevent people deducting fictional expenses to reduce their gross earnings, so they pay tax & contributions on a lower figure.
You need to find and pay for a payroll company, it's how contractors do it here.
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Old 03.10.2012, 19:44
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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Yep I'm afraid FMF is right..

Only sure way round it is to set up a GmbH and that employs you and sell your time services as a consultant from the company; downside is it will cost you 20k to set up before you even get to the pension and AHV side...
This is really not strictly true. Sure you have to place Chf 20k in a bank account (or Chf10k + assets to the value of a further Chf 10k) and then once you have created the SÓrl or GmbH via the notary, he takes his fee and the taxes due to the canton and the rest is returned to the company's bank account. As you own 100% the company, this means back to you, to do as you see fit.

True you need Chf 20k or Chf10k + assets but you get it back so it doesn't cost you Chf 20k, more like Chf 2.5 - 3k for notary and taxes.
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Old 03.10.2012, 21:35
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

I think the Swiss are very unlikely to accept that you're self employed when you only have one client. That seems to be the case from the few threads I've read here. The thing is it's not your decision on your employment status, it's the relevant Swiss authorities, i.e. those who will grant you the permit you need. If you can find another couple of contracted clients, you'll stand a much better chance.
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Old 03.10.2012, 21:53
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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I think the Swiss are very unlikely to accept that you're self employed when you only have one client. That seems to be the case from the few threads I've read here. The thing is it's not your decision on your employment status, it's the relevant Swiss authorities, i.e. those who will grant you the permit you need. If you can find another couple of contracted clients, you'll stand a much better chance.
It seems that even with more than one client, if you are just going into those companies' offices, using their equipment, they tell you what hours you are expected to be there, etc you are just acting as a de facto employee and that is frowned upon.
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Old 03.10.2012, 22:43
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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Yep I'm afraid FMF is right..

Only sure way round it is to set up a GmbH and that employs you and sell your time services as a consultant from the company; downside is it will cost you 20k to set up before you even get to the pension and AHV side...
In reality this will not work either! As company that is engaged in body shopping - supplying contractors, the company is required to provide an AHV bond of 50K. As a start up company this usually means you have to deposit the cash with the Zurich AHV authorities or with a bank that will then issue a guarantee to the AHV people.

The only reasonable solution is to work through one of the agency umbrella companies. It also means that once OP has the required 12 months contributions, getting unemployment benefit is not an issue, should the OP ever need to claim it.
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Old 04.10.2012, 02:26
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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"Avoid social costs"?? If I was doing that, why would I go actively contacting the AVH office?

Surely if I pay the correct % of my income in as any other sole trader Joe Bloggs would and show them a copy of the contract that exists - hopefully - between myself and the company I'd be "contracting" my services to (so they knew how much I was earning/month) then there'd be no particular problem?

Or are pension contributions lower for sole traders vs "full fat" employees of a company? If that's the case, then I can see their point at a push, but it's not as if I've chosen to make the potential offer of employment on a "external contractor only" basis.
It's not like Blighty, and it has nothing to do with the level of income, but where that income comes from. The SVA will only accept someone as a sole trader or self employed if they can genuinely and clearly demonstrate they have multiple business sources. Your plan would fail this on the basis as you will only have business from one source, so they would take the view that you are employed by that company. Furthermore, if you are going to their premises, using their equipment etc, they will also reject you as self employed, even if you had 2 or 3 clients. They would just say you are a full or part time employee, so I think your have no chance of getting this to work.
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Old 04.10.2012, 09:37
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

Yup! That is ANOBAG "Arbeitnehmer ohne Beitragspflichtiger Arbeitgeber" the AHV will drag you by the short black and curlies.
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Old 04.10.2012, 12:16
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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It's not like Blighty, and it has nothing to do with the level of income, but where that income comes from. The SVA will only accept someone as a sole trader or self employed if they can genuinely and clearly demonstrate they have multiple business sources. Your plan would fail this on the basis as you will only have business from one source, so they would take the view that you are employed by that company. Furthermore, if you are going to their premises, using their equipment etc, they will also reject you as self employed, even if you had 2 or 3 clients. They would just say you are a full or part time employee, so I think your have no chance of getting this to work.
You don't need any source of income at all to prove self employment, you need to prove that your taking a risk & are open for business.
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Old 04.10.2012, 13:01
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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This is really not strictly true. Sure you have to place Chf 20k in a bank account (or Chf10k + assets to the value of a further Chf 10k) and then once you have created the SÓrl or GmbH via the notary, he takes his fee and the taxes due to the canton and the rest is returned to the company's bank account. As you own 100% the company, this means back to you, to do as you see fit.

True you need Chf 20k or Chf10k + assets but you get it back so it doesn't cost you Chf 20k, more like Chf 2.5 - 3k for notary and taxes.
I understood that the 20K belongs to the company. You cannot just transfer it back to your bank account - you can only transfer money from your company to you as a dividend, salary (with AHV) or to reimburse expenses.

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In reality this will not work either! As company that is engaged in body shopping - supplying contractors, the company is required to provide an AHV bond of 50K. As a start up company this usually means you have to deposit the cash with the Zurich AHV authorities or with a bank that will then issue a guarantee to the AHV people...
I've been happily working through my GmbH for the same client in Basel for 8 years.

The AHV bond requirement does not apply in Basel for one man companies - they recognise that if you're the only employee, you're not going to abscond with the employee's wages! In other cantons, if you go via an agency, then the bond is taken care of by them. Or you can purchase an AHV Bond insurance.

I went through the AHV audit without any difficulties at all.

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You don't need any source of income at all to prove self employment, you need to prove that your taking a risk & are open for business.
True. But they like to see invoices from three different customers before they'll register you.
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Old 04.10.2012, 13:07
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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True. But they like to see invoices from three different customers before they'll register you.
There are many businesses where no invoices are generated in the first year, you have to design, build & market your product before any possible sales.
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Old 04.10.2012, 13:41
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

Like I said nothing to do with income, nor profit or loss, but where the income would come from. I went through the process just over 2 years ago and that was the very well given explanation from the SVA.

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Old 04.10.2012, 13:58
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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I've been happily working through my GmbH for the same client in Basel for 8 years.

The AHV bond requirement does not apply in Basel for one man companies - they recognise that if you're the only employee, you're not going to abscond with the employee's wages! In other cantons, if you go via an agency, then the bond is taken care of by them. Or you can purchase an AHV Bond insurance.

I went through the AHV audit without any difficulties at all.

True. But they like to see invoices from three different customers before they'll register you.
Yep and we look after lots of GmbHs that do this... My post was a start point and still stands, it will cost 20k to set up minimum, so one must have these means... The bonds depend on Business, it's size and Kanton, it is obviously more complex and varies situation to situation.

In any case the crux of the matter is unless the OP is going to be here for longer and perhaps use the GmbH as a more future proof entity it would be pointless....
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Old 04.10.2012, 16:37
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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Yep and we look after lots of GmbHs that do this... My post was a start point and still stands, it will cost 20k to semeaning ot up minimum, so one must have these means... The bonds depend on Business, it's size and Kanton, it is obviously more complex and varies situation to situation.

In any case the crux of the matter is unless the OP is going to be here for longer and perhaps use the GmbH as a more future proof entity it would be pointless....
Fine but your point is technically wrong as you can actually do it with a minimum of 50% cash, the rest can be in assets, computers, cars, office furniture or whatever. The value of the assets are arbitarily ageeed upon, basicaly what you say they are worth is what they are worth !

The minimum 10k you need to have access for for about 1 week and of this you get back about Chf7k, the rest being used for notary expenses and taxes. This money you can then take out of the company for whatever reason, translation services, salary payment, loan to XYZ.
Meaning you can borrow the moeny and pay somebody back in about a week.

I do not condone this way, but it's possible

I have several GmbH/SÓrl companies, i am reasonably familiar with the process of setting up and how to make the rules a little more flexible if i need, which i don't !
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Old 08.10.2012, 20:21
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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From their point of view your just an employee trying to avoid social costs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically it's the employing company that is deemed to be trying to avoid social costs. The UK has the same thing (or used to), called IR35. The idea is to stop companies getting out of their obligations re social security (and in the UK, redundancy)
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Old 08.10.2012, 21:03
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically it's the employing company that is deemed to be trying to avoid social costs. The UK has the same thing (or used to), called IR35. The idea is to stop companies getting out of their obligations re social security (and in the UK, redundancy)
Your correct, they restrict the ability for people to set up as self employed for exactly that reason.
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Old 16.10.2012, 12:43
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Re: UK resident - setting up as a sole trader

I recently went through the process of registering with the SVA as self employed (but I have a C permit so slightly different) and in addition to their form I had to supply copies of invoices, adverts, evidence of clients etc. For me it was a fairly simple matter of printing off stuff I already had but they did want a lot of evidence.
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