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  #21  
Old 10.04.2013, 22:15
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Hello,

Wow, I can empathise with you! It is very frustrating. I had a spate of "non-payers" last year as I was just starting out. I filed several Betreibungs without much success. (Not to say I wouldn't do it again)

I think the thing to be most aware, which I was not aware, is that each Canton has different "Methods" for contacting these people. Some will actually send a person and charge you exorbitant prices 75, 90, 100 CHF per visit. They don't tell you how many efforts they will make. Then, you get a large bill that usually is higher than the outstanding bill. My advice is to call the Betriebungs office of that Canton. They will talk you through it, usually. I had trouble with the French speaking cantons.

I would like to see some service available to small businesses whereby they can run a "check" on someone's name before offering credit. I have just joined Moneyhouse and will see how I get with that.

Good luck. It is a frustrating process, but I think, necessary.

Cheers,

Shannon
Prêt á Party
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  #22  
Old 10.04.2013, 23:17
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

There are companies in Switzerland that offer just that service - to check the bonität (a so-called credit check) of a person or company. The service is not cheap - unless you need to check three to five a week, it does not pay off to enter the service.

For example, I joined a company a number of years ago when I ran a fairly successful webshop. They charged me to be a member, think it was CHF 480.- per year. Then they charged per check. The information delivered in the check was A through E. A being best, and hardly anyone had this rating. Only those that have had a loan through a partner company and paid everything on time get an A. B is what most people have. C if missing payment are reported. D if in Betreibung and E if found a true accident waiting to happen.

As I was doing checks, I would deliver with invoice only to those with A and B. C and D must prepay. E rating and I ignored them - because they were only ordering with no intentions to pay.

I don't remember exactly what the inkasso company charged to check. Think it was 5 or 6 Franks each - depending on how many pre-purchased credits. Then, if a check was made and the person had an A or B rating, and the customer didn't pay, the inkasso company went after the money for me, for free. If C, D or E... they charged me 50% of the amount I was trying to get out of the non-paying individual.

Lastly, after cancelling my "membership" in writing, the inkasso company continued to send me annual membership invoices - for a number of years. Each time I would call - the pour soul at the call center listened to my story and said they would call me back - never to return a call. Last couple years they even had the nerve to send me a payment reminder (Mahnung)... then I called and got a little loud... again, promise to call back and nothing heard of them... till the next annual membership invoice. I am waiting on their next invoice, should come any day now

And this is the same company that reports to Bern about the national paying moral here in Switzerland. So they are well known and can't keep a customer's record in order no matter what they do... what a screw up!

Long explanation... hope it helps someone.
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Old 12.04.2013, 23:43
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

The court appointment regarding the bankruptcy of my debtor was this last week. Since I have never taken a Betreibung this far, I called the judge to inquire about two things; 1) What should I expect from this appointment and 2) Do I have to be there.

His answers were:
1) Since the Betreibung, Zahlungsbefehl (payment order) and Konkursandrohung (bankruptcy process) were all well documented, the judge would ask the debtor about his financial condition and try to find a way to get the money to pay me. If payment was not possible within a reasonable amount of time... the bankruptcy would be opened and referred to the local Konkursamt (local bankrupcy office) for further processing.
2) No, I don't have to be there... but should be available via telephone in case there is a possible payment in the near future - to ask if I accept the payment date.

And, that is what happened. The judge called me and said the debtor had some money coming in near the end of this month. If I would be willing to wait till the end of April to receive the full payment (debt, interest, Betreibung and Konkursandrohung costs and the court costs). The judge continued, said if the payment is not confirmed by midnight on the 30th of April, he (the judge) would open the bankruptcy on my debtor himself on the first of May (or second depending if the holiday is recognized).

I agreed. Also asked about the CHF 1800.- that I paid in advance. The judge assured me the full amount would be returned (the debtor would pay the CHF 100.- court costs) if the money is transferred by the end of the month. If the bankruptcy is opened on the first of May, my CHF 1800.- will be applied to the case and cover the court costs. Also the CHF 1800.- will be added to the debt total.

So, the wait is on again... the saga continues
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  #24  
Old 30.04.2013, 13:52
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Another update. Today, the last day of the month (important if you have been following this) has arrived.

First, this morning, the debtor calls me and says he will have the money tomorrow or the next day (1st or 2nd of May). Said he will bring cash by. If that is OK with me? He was polite and kind with his words.

I replied that the current agreement is between himself and the judge, it is not my decision. Also replied that I don't want cash, would rather have the money via bank transfer for documented proof of date.

Just before lunch I spoke with the judge. He had spoken with the debtor and explained to me, that his experience tells him to trust the debtor and wait till Friday. Fed up with the waiting and postponing, I expressed my interest in receiving the money owed to me and wish to teach the debtor a lesson in the process. Initially in the call, I wished to go forward with the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process). The judge ensured me (but didn't promise) that his gut feeling is the debtor will pay given a few more days. Being Tuesday with the new deadline only a few days away, I agreed to wait.

So, newest status is; the money will be in my account on Friday (not sent on Friday ). The judge is going on vacation next week and wants to have this completely wrapped up by Friday. No money on Friday and the bankruptcy process will be opened - no questions asked.

FTTDK (For Those That Don't Know), if it goes to bankruptcy, the debtor will be forced to close two businesses, one of which with employees. Also, if the bankruptcy process is opened, other creditors may join in - upping the total in which will be recovered in the debtor's personal possessions (car, IT equipment, property, TV, stereo, investments). That is the way the sole proprietorship (Einzelfirma) works here.
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  #25  
Old 30.04.2013, 17:04
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Jumping Captain Lets hope the judge is right.

My case has took a turn today, I received a official letter which included a orange payslip (for fees?)
The odd thing about it is a hand written note which is very hard to read and even a German speaker cannot read it so I need to call the office tomorrow to find out what is what.

fingers crossed
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  #26  
Old 30.04.2013, 17:11
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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Jumping Captain Lets hope the judge is right.

My case has took a turn today, I received a official letter which included a orange payslip (for fees?)
The odd thing about it is a hand written note which is very hard to read and even a German speaker cannot read it so I need to call the office tomorrow to find out what is what.

fingers crossed
Hand written is not normal. If I recall correctly, the costs for Betreibung and Konkursandrohung were CHF 73.- each. Does that match up with or close to the amount they are asking for?
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Old 30.04.2013, 17:17
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Yes it's for 70. We tried another look and it still is not readable, must be written by a doctor
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  #28  
Old 30.04.2013, 17:25
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

And you have not yet paid for the initial Betriebung? What does the official letter say?
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  #29  
Old 30.04.2013, 17:30
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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Another update:

I visited the local Betreibungsamt, asked for an "Auszug" (printed log) of this person's history with them. Luckily (FMF), the debtor is not on social welfare

He came back with and A4 page full of history that goes back as far as July 2011 and new entries as current as the end of February 2013!! My options, as previously mentioned, are to begin the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process).

Today I received an invoice for CHF 1800.- and an appointment to appear before the judge in about four weeks.

I can pay the CHF 1800.- to show the debtor that I mean business, then have up to 24 hours before the court date to retract. If I retract in time, I get CHF 1700.- back. If I decide to go through with it, the 1800 Franks covers costs involved and that is money lost, non-recoverable, gone with the wind

The debtor owes me just over 4k, minus the 1800, I should see just over 22 hundred out of it... unless the debtor has nothing to "Pfand" (a form of pawn)... That is the risk involved from my side. The debtor owns at least two businesses and both are Einzelfirmen, so he is personally responsible and liable with his personal worth and goods.

BTW, at this point in time, I am the first that opened the bankruptcy process.
JC
did you initiate all of this yourself, or did you have a lawyer or other adviser? if a lawyer/adviser, can you give an indication of the cost of doing this?
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  #30  
Old 30.04.2013, 17:37
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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did you initiate all of this yourself, or did you have a lawyer or other adviser? if a lawyer/adviser, can you give an indication of the cost of doing this?
All on my own. Of course I asked questions along the way. The Betreibungsamt people head for cover when I turn the corner heading towards their office

So, essentially, my output looks like this:
CHF 73.- Betreibung
CHF 73.- Konkursandrohnung
CHF 15.- Print out of debtor's current B/KA and names of creditors
CHF 1800.- To the court to open the bankruptcy process - Here it goes before a judge who attempts to find a solution or puts his official stamp on the bankruptcy paperwork and it goes to the local Konkursamt for processing.

Payment will include the 2x 73.- plus the 100.- of the 1800.- which stays in the court. I will receive CHF 1700.- back from the court. Which leaves my output at CHF 15.-. Plus the debtor pays interest on the money originally owed!
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  #31  
Old 03.05.2013, 15:37
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Ever have one of those moments when your head hurts, your stomach turns and your blood pressure rises?

Well, it is Friday again and the judge just called... Despite his agreement with the judge to pay in full by today, the debtor is in the judge's office and placed CHF 2000.- on the table as partial payment. The judge is a kind person and offered his thoughts as I was quiet on the phone trying to bring my blood pressure back down

The judge offered this; The debtor has shown an interest in paying. Has placed CHF 2000.- on the table (less than half of owed). And has promised to pay the rest on next Friday. He added, at least we have 2000 Franks and apparently he is not liquid for more. If the debtor does not pay on Friday, the judge will initiate the bankruptcy process. Then added, at least he has paid this much and has demonstrated an interest in avoiding the bankruptcy.

OK... I agreed.

Right now I am at a loss for words about this. Anger and satisfaction combined into one knot in my stomach. Surely hope the satisfaction will win
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Old 03.05.2013, 17:52
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

i guess half is better than nothing. are you sure accepting the half isn't acceptance as full and final payment?
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Old 03.05.2013, 17:59
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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i guess half is better than nothing. are you sure accepting the half isn't acceptance as full and final payment?
Good question!

No, I specifically asked the judge and he confirmed that the rest is due in full in one week. No more half of the half of the half, etc...

The judge will hold on to the CHF 2k received till the entire amount is verified... then they will forward it to me. Acceptable.
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Old 13.05.2013, 17:13
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Unless someone has further questions, this will be the last post from me regarding the Betreibung and Konkursandrohung. Would be glad to help anyone the best I can.

Just received a call from the judge. The debtor paid the full amount and I will be receiving just shy of CHF 6k to my account tomorrow.
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Old 13.05.2013, 17:19
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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Unless someone has further questions, this will be the last post from me regarding the Betreibung and Konkursandrohung. Would be glad to help anyone the best I can.

Just received a call from the judge. The debtor paid the full amount and I will be receiving just shy of CHF 6k to my account tomorrow.
Glad you got it sorted!
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  #36  
Old 13.05.2013, 17:23
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Thanks Phil. The interest alone is over six hundred Franks.

This is why I hate to see people trying to cheat the system (Billag). It won't end up cheap - the system wins.
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Old 13.05.2013, 17:40
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Thanks for this overview. I'm glad it all worked out JC.
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  #38  
Old 13.05.2013, 17:46
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Congratulations on getting this very tedious matter sorted out Jumping Captain. I have gotten stuck at quite an earlier point in the Betreibung process. I have set it into motion, and my debtor ( a GmbH) has claimed "Rechtsvorschlag" , at which point I have to prove through a signed contract that he does indeed owe me. THe Betreibungsamt and the court says my previously and partially paid invoices & e-mail communications are not adequate proof that there was an agreement that the money is owed to me. I had no contract but rather an informal agreement, and until the customer stopped paying , it had worked well enough. Now it seems the Vermittleramt ( Mediation) is my last remaining hope according to the authorities in the Commune where the Debtor is based. Does this sound correct so far to people with such experience ?
I am a part time machine embroiderer and take small orders from people or shops to decorate garments ,hats, etc. How can I protect myself when taking such orders in the future, wherein the agreement between me and the customer would have the force of a contract? I appreciate any knowledgable feedback. Thanks

Simeon
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Old 13.05.2013, 17:49
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

That's great news.
Mine is sort of good. We rang up about the notice and it turns out that they still are in the same Geminde (After spending 5chf to find out)and they did not contest the claim. The person we spoke to did not know what the hand written note was about and could not find who ever had wrote it.
Just put my claim in so lets see if it is to be paid or not.
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Old 13.05.2013, 17:51
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Congrats - glad it all went well.
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