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grey1234 18.01.2013 08:39

Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
I have a client that has not paid me, they will not answer the phone to me. I have sent reminders, and am sending the final reminder to pay in 7 days today. I’m not hopeful.
So the next step will be a Betreibung
Does anyone have experience of filing one? What happens if they dispute it?



All advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks

Jumping Captain 18.01.2013 09:27

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grey1234 (Post 1771660)
I have a client that has not paid me, they will not answer the phone to me. I have sent reminders, and am sending the final reminder to pay in 7 days today. I’m not hopeful.
So the next step will be a Betreibung
Does anyone have experience of filing one? What happens if they dispute it?



All advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks


In German, French and Italian: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/eschk..._index_html_de

Either way, this topic has been discussed here from both sides in the recent past.
JC

eng_ch 18.01.2013 10:02

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
I've had a look through the threads that search throws up - and the link JC posted - but I'd still be very interested to hear from anyone who has had to go through the entire Betreibung process, including going to court if the debtor submits a Rechtsvorschlag. I've been really lucky so far, but it would be good to hear personal experiences. If the debtor does submit a Rechtsvorschlag, I presume both the Betreibung and the Rechtsvorschlag stay on the record until the whole process is concluded - and maybe even afterwards?

Jumping Captain 18.01.2013 16:54

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eng_ch (Post 1771743)
I've had a look through the threads that search throws up - and the link JC posted - but I'd still be very interested to hear from anyone who has had to go through the entire Betreibung process, including going to court if the debtor submits a Rechtsvorschlag. I've been really lucky so far, but it would be good to hear personal experiences. If the debtor does submit a Rechtsvorschlag, I presume both the Betreibung and the Rechtsvorschlag stay on the record until the whole process is concluded - and maybe even afterwards?

Yes, both stay on record till the Gläubiger/person owed removes it. With Rechtsvorschlag I would visit my lawyer. Let the lawyers handle it. If you are in the right, you will see your money and the lawyer costs. If the Schuldner/person owes contests it... it may end up in court. That gets costly and you had better hope your documents are 100% in order :)

My latest Betreibung as Gläubiger just came back today with a red stamp on the Zahlungsbefehl/payment order: "Kein Rechtscorschlag" which means no contest. Further, it means that the person that owes me (Schuldner) does not disagree that they owe me.

My next step is to fill out a form called "Begehren um Fortsetzung der Betreibung", my wish to follow through with the Betreibung. This form will give the Betreibungsamt the authorization to approach the person that owes me and demand the money or sell his property in order to pay me and cover the costs of the Betreibung.

The only thing working against me, is if the Schuldner changes all his company registration with a date before my initial Betreibung. Which, on that date, was registered as an Einzelfirma/sole ownership... We know this and have it documented because we checked at the Betreibungsamt when I did the initial paperwork.

If you'd like, I will keep you informed of how it works out. Any other related questions?
JC

grey1234 23.01.2013 08:30

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jumping Captain (Post 1771696)
In German, French and Italian: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/eschk..._index_html_de

Either way, this topic has been discussed here from both sides in the recent past.
JC

Cheers for the link, looks like I'm going down the process as my final reminder has been ignored.

Jumping Captain 05.03.2013 21:30

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Update:

The Konkursanforderung (bankruptcy requirements) was picked up by the Schuldner (debtor) on the 8th of February. The debtor had 10 days to reply or pay. Nothing.

I sent off copies to the local responsible court. According to the people at the court's offices, they will send an invoice for CHF 1800.- (not a misprint: 1800). Once this is paid, they will initiate the forced bankruptcy of the debtor via the court. If I retract the forced bankruptcy up to 24 hours before the set court date, I will receive all but CHF 100.- back.

Before paying this amount, I will double check with the local Betreibungsamt to see if this debtor has any Verlustschein (statement of loss) on their name. If so, I will go with plan B. Will cost me 10 or 15 Franks - but a lot less than the 1800 :)

Plan A: To pay the CHF 1800.- and let the courts attempt to obtain the few thousand more for me.

Plan B: To pay the CHF 1800.- and use this as a scare tactic - then withdrawal the forced bankruptcy before the court date, accepting my loss and marking it off to experience.

Does anybody have any experience with this - from either side of the table? I am curious of the reputation damage to the debtor. Will a bankruptcy stay on their record or name? Will it be removed after time? Looks like I need to get my nose back into Google and see what I can find.
JC

fatmanfilms 05.03.2013 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jumping Captain (Post 1817138)
Update:

The Konkursanforderung (bankruptcy requirements) was picked up by the Schuldner (debtor) on the 8th of February. The debtor had 10 days to reply or pay. Nothing.

I sent off copies to the local responsible court. According to the people at the court's offices, they will send an invoice for CHF 1800.- (not a misprint: 1800). Once this is paid, they will initiate the forced bankruptcy of the debtor via the court. If I retract the forced bankruptcy up to 24 hours before the set court date, I will receive all but CHF 100.- back.

Before paying this amount, I will double check with the local Betreibungsamt to see if this debtor has any Verlustschein (statement of loss) on their name. If so, I will go with plan B. Will cost me 10 or 15 Franks - but a lot less than the 1800 :)

Plan A: To pay the CHF 1800.- and let the courts attempt to obtain the few thousand more for me.

Plan B: To pay the CHF 1800.- and use this as a scare tactic - then withdrawal the forced bankruptcy before the court date, accepting my loss and marking it off to experience.

Does anybody have any experience with this - from either side of the table? I am curious of the reputation damage to the debtor. Will a bankruptcy stay on their record or name? Will it be removed after time? Looks like I need to get my nose back into Google and see what I can find.
JC

If the person has no money or is on social benefits they will be laughing at you. You may see 100k plus of outstanding claims its not unusual.

Jumping Captain 05.03.2013 22:01

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 1817158)
If the person has no money or is on social benefits they will be laughing at you. You may see 100k plus of outstanding claims its not unusual.

Thanks FMF, that is exactly the reason why I will double check at the local Betreibungsamt to see if they have any other outstanding debts.
JC

Jumping Captain 07.03.2013 21:56

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Another update:

I visited the local Betreibungsamt, asked for an "Auszug" (printed log) of this person's history with them. Luckily (FMF), the debtor is not on social welfare :)

He came back with and A4 page full of history that goes back as far as July 2011 and new entries as current as the end of February 2013!! My options, as previously mentioned, are to begin the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process).

Today I received an invoice for CHF 1800.- and an appointment to appear before the judge in about four weeks.

I can pay the CHF 1800.- to show the debtor that I mean business, then have up to 24 hours before the court date to retract. If I retract in time, I get CHF 1700.- back. If I decide to go through with it, the 1800 Franks covers costs involved and that is money lost, non-recoverable, gone with the wind :)

The debtor owes me just over 4k, minus the 1800, I should see just over 22 hundred out of it... unless the debtor has nothing to "Pfand" (a form of pawn)... That is the risk involved from my side. The debtor owns at least two businesses and both are Einzelfirmen, so he is personally responsible and liable with his personal worth and goods.

BTW, at this point in time, I am the first that opened the bankruptcy process.
JC

eng_ch 07.03.2013 22:47

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand? Surely the latter must be cheaper?

And you said the Betreibungsamt tells you whether or not the debtor has paid after the 30 days, right? Or do you have to chase it up yourself?

BTW is this the first time you've had someone not pay up after being served with a Betreibung?

Jumping Captain 07.03.2013 23:08

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eng_ch (Post 1819172)
I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand? Surely the latter must be cheaper?

And you said the Betreibungsamt tells you whether or not the debtor has paid after the 30 days, right? Or do you have to chase it up yourself?

BTW is this the first time you've had someone not pay up after being served with a Betreibung?

The Kreisgericht said it the judge would recommend Lohnpfandung (automatic paycheck removal) if nothing of value is available for Pfandung.

The Betreibungsamt did not receive any funds during the 30 days, neither did I - therefore it is my decision to apply the next step, Konkursandrohung.

No, this is not the first time. Have done a number of Betreibungs - value from CHF 55.- to (a different one) CHF 4000.-. Most are eventually paid off, sometime right away, others in monthly payments. One ended up in a Verlustschein and one in automatic paycheck removal. Both the Verlustschein and automatic paycheck removal were situations that the Konkurs (bankruptcy) was not initiated by myself, but others and I attached my claim onto theirs.
JC

NotAllThere 08.03.2013 07:08

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eng_ch (Post 1819172)
I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand?...

It seems a similar route some take in the UK. There you issue a statutory notice. If that doesn't result in payment, you go to court and ask the judge to issue a winding up notice against the business, on the grounds they can't pay their debts. If a business is in anyway solvent, they usually cough up, rather than go out of business!

Bad debt and late payment ruins company cashflow, and causes otherwise healthy companies to die.

eng_ch 08.03.2013 08:49

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

The Betreibungsamt did not receive any funds during the 30 days, neither did I - therefore it is my decision to apply the next step, Konkursandrohung.
Understood, I just wondered if the Betreibungsamt actively notified you that no funds had been received or whether you had to enquire pro-actively.

Quote:

If that doesn't result in payment, you go to court and ask the judge to issue a winding up notice against the business, on the grounds they can't pay their debts. If a business is in anyway solvent, they usually cough up, rather than go out of business!

Bad debt and late payment ruins company cashflow, and causes otherwise healthy companies to die.
Oh indeed, well aware of that! I just wondered whether there was a good reason for going for the enforced bankruptcy route over Pfand, all other things being equal. After all, the aim is to get as much back out of it as possible, and spending CHF 1800 to enforce bankruptcy seems rather a lot for 4k

Jumping Captain 08.03.2013 08:55

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eng_ch (Post 1819321)
Understood, I just wondered if the Betreibungsamt actively notified you that no funds had been received or whether you had to enquire pro-actively.



Oh indeed, well aware of that! I just wondered whether there was a good reason for going for the enforced bankruptcy route over Pfand, all other things being equal. After all, the aim is to get as much back out of it as possible, and spending CHF 1800 to enforce bankruptcy seems rather a lot for 4k


I am pretty sure the Betreibungsamt would have notified me as soon as any money was paid from the debtor. Or, at the latest, when I attempted to start the Konkursandrohung.

1800 seems to be quite a bit - and the difference will not break me. It has grown into a matter of principle here. Of course the goal is to get as much out of it as possible :)
JC

Jumping Captain 01.04.2013 15:26

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Update, end of March 2013:

The CHF 1800.- was paid to the court twelve days before the court date. I am getting all documents in order and am looking forward to putting my facts on the table.

Possibilities of how this will turn out:
1. I receive all funds including interest,
2. I will receive a monthly payment till the open invoices and interest is covered,
3. Since the debtor has no money, the court will demand selling his personal items (Einzelfirma) to pay his debts,
4. The debtor has nothing and I receive nothing.

If 2, 3 or 4 happens, the debtor will be filed as bankrupt and that will hang over his head forever. Most likely his business will be closed and taken off the Handelsregister as bankrupt.

Of course I don't really care if he is forced into bankruptcy. His lack of concern to pay his bills is not my problem and as far as I am concerned, he deserves it.

Though, I do hope for the first solution above :) Easier for all involved. Will update here as of the results from the visit in court.
JC

Upthehatters2008 01.04.2013 15:42

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
It is always best to negotiate a payment plan the debtor can realistically afford rather than chase through courts , bankruptcy etc. You cannot get blood out of a stone. You need co-operation, not resentment.

Jumping Captain 01.04.2013 16:10

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1840781)
It is always best to negotiate a payment plan the debtor can realistically afford rather than chase through courts , bankruptcy etc. You cannot get blood out of a stone. You need co-operation, not resentment.

Agree with you 100 percent! I have tried this. The debtor has never made an effort to contact me on his own regarding payments. I have always made the first move, whether asking or threatening Betreibung... Even in the current light of this bankruptcy, I called to see if he has any intentions to pay. His answer was a light hearted "no".

Maybe, the day before the court date as with other cases (where I sued for other reasons), the debtor will chirp up and offer payments - in which I will gladly accept - once the first payment is made. This debtor already said they would make payments and paid the first invoice (of three)... then stopped. And here we are.
JC

grey1234 01.04.2013 16:32

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
My efforts have stalled, the betreibung office cannot contact him to issue the betreibung as it has to be given in person. They have tried a few times.
I'm giving them some more time, if I have to take it further I will have to weight up the cost/risk against not recovering anything.



Jumping Captain 08.04.2013 14:13

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
Any update on your situation Grey1234?

Seems odd that the person denied delivery of the Zahungsbefehl (payment order). That just makes like difficult for themselves.

My court date is coming up. I have all documents, invoices, e-mails and SMSs printed and in chronological order. Either the debtor will be forced to close their doors and/or sell off any material items to pay me and/or pay me off with a monthly payment. This person has money, even in the new Volvo XC they bought less than a year ago. Einzelfirma (sole ownership) going bust through the court system can pull his personal assets into the payment system.

Will let you know what happens after the court date.
JC

grey1234 08.04.2013 14:36

Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.
 
NO new updates, been a bit busy with paying clients, Going to give the office a ring next week to see if they have any joy and to see what the next step is.

Jumping Captain yours is sounding more positive. keep us updated


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