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Old 18.01.2013, 09:39
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Betreibung any experiences of the process.

I have a client that has not paid me, they will not answer the phone to me. I have sent reminders, and am sending the final reminder to pay in 7 days today. I’m not hopeful.
So the next step will be a Betreibung
Does anyone have experience of filing one? What happens if they dispute it?



All advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks
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Old 18.01.2013, 10:27
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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I have a client that has not paid me, they will not answer the phone to me. I have sent reminders, and am sending the final reminder to pay in 7 days today. I’m not hopeful.
So the next step will be a Betreibung
Does anyone have experience of filing one? What happens if they dispute it?



All advice would be greatly appreciated.Thanks

In German, French and Italian: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/eschk..._index_html_de

Either way, this topic has been discussed here from both sides in the recent past.
JC
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Old 18.01.2013, 11:02
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

I've had a look through the threads that search throws up - and the link JC posted - but I'd still be very interested to hear from anyone who has had to go through the entire Betreibung process, including going to court if the debtor submits a Rechtsvorschlag. I've been really lucky so far, but it would be good to hear personal experiences. If the debtor does submit a Rechtsvorschlag, I presume both the Betreibung and the Rechtsvorschlag stay on the record until the whole process is concluded - and maybe even afterwards?
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Old 18.01.2013, 17:54
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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I've had a look through the threads that search throws up - and the link JC posted - but I'd still be very interested to hear from anyone who has had to go through the entire Betreibung process, including going to court if the debtor submits a Rechtsvorschlag. I've been really lucky so far, but it would be good to hear personal experiences. If the debtor does submit a Rechtsvorschlag, I presume both the Betreibung and the Rechtsvorschlag stay on the record until the whole process is concluded - and maybe even afterwards?
Yes, both stay on record till the Gläubiger/person owed removes it. With Rechtsvorschlag I would visit my lawyer. Let the lawyers handle it. If you are in the right, you will see your money and the lawyer costs. If the Schuldner/person owes contests it... it may end up in court. That gets costly and you had better hope your documents are 100% in order

My latest Betreibung as Gläubiger just came back today with a red stamp on the Zahlungsbefehl/payment order: "Kein Rechtscorschlag" which means no contest. Further, it means that the person that owes me (Schuldner) does not disagree that they owe me.

My next step is to fill out a form called "Begehren um Fortsetzung der Betreibung", my wish to follow through with the Betreibung. This form will give the Betreibungsamt the authorization to approach the person that owes me and demand the money or sell his property in order to pay me and cover the costs of the Betreibung.

The only thing working against me, is if the Schuldner changes all his company registration with a date before my initial Betreibung. Which, on that date, was registered as an Einzelfirma/sole ownership... We know this and have it documented because we checked at the Betreibungsamt when I did the initial paperwork.

If you'd like, I will keep you informed of how it works out. Any other related questions?
JC
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Old 23.01.2013, 09:30
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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In German, French and Italian: https://www.e-service.admin.ch/eschk..._index_html_de

Either way, this topic has been discussed here from both sides in the recent past.
JC
Cheers for the link, looks like I'm going down the process as my final reminder has been ignored.
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Old 05.03.2013, 22:30
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Update:

The Konkursanforderung (bankruptcy requirements) was picked up by the Schuldner (debtor) on the 8th of February. The debtor had 10 days to reply or pay. Nothing.

I sent off copies to the local responsible court. According to the people at the court's offices, they will send an invoice for CHF 1800.- (not a misprint: 1800). Once this is paid, they will initiate the forced bankruptcy of the debtor via the court. If I retract the forced bankruptcy up to 24 hours before the set court date, I will receive all but CHF 100.- back.

Before paying this amount, I will double check with the local Betreibungsamt to see if this debtor has any Verlustschein (statement of loss) on their name. If so, I will go with plan B. Will cost me 10 or 15 Franks - but a lot less than the 1800

Plan A: To pay the CHF 1800.- and let the courts attempt to obtain the few thousand more for me.

Plan B: To pay the CHF 1800.- and use this as a scare tactic - then withdrawal the forced bankruptcy before the court date, accepting my loss and marking it off to experience.

Does anybody have any experience with this - from either side of the table? I am curious of the reputation damage to the debtor. Will a bankruptcy stay on their record or name? Will it be removed after time? Looks like I need to get my nose back into Google and see what I can find.
JC
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Old 05.03.2013, 22:54
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Update:

The Konkursanforderung (bankruptcy requirements) was picked up by the Schuldner (debtor) on the 8th of February. The debtor had 10 days to reply or pay. Nothing.

I sent off copies to the local responsible court. According to the people at the court's offices, they will send an invoice for CHF 1800.- (not a misprint: 1800). Once this is paid, they will initiate the forced bankruptcy of the debtor via the court. If I retract the forced bankruptcy up to 24 hours before the set court date, I will receive all but CHF 100.- back.

Before paying this amount, I will double check with the local Betreibungsamt to see if this debtor has any Verlustschein (statement of loss) on their name. If so, I will go with plan B. Will cost me 10 or 15 Franks - but a lot less than the 1800

Plan A: To pay the CHF 1800.- and let the courts attempt to obtain the few thousand more for me.

Plan B: To pay the CHF 1800.- and use this as a scare tactic - then withdrawal the forced bankruptcy before the court date, accepting my loss and marking it off to experience.

Does anybody have any experience with this - from either side of the table? I am curious of the reputation damage to the debtor. Will a bankruptcy stay on their record or name? Will it be removed after time? Looks like I need to get my nose back into Google and see what I can find.
JC
If the person has no money or is on social benefits they will be laughing at you. You may see 100k plus of outstanding claims its not unusual.
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Old 05.03.2013, 23:01
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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If the person has no money or is on social benefits they will be laughing at you. You may see 100k plus of outstanding claims its not unusual.
Thanks FMF, that is exactly the reason why I will double check at the local Betreibungsamt to see if they have any other outstanding debts.
JC
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Old 07.03.2013, 22:56
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Another update:

I visited the local Betreibungsamt, asked for an "Auszug" (printed log) of this person's history with them. Luckily (FMF), the debtor is not on social welfare

He came back with and A4 page full of history that goes back as far as July 2011 and new entries as current as the end of February 2013!! My options, as previously mentioned, are to begin the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process).

Today I received an invoice for CHF 1800.- and an appointment to appear before the judge in about four weeks.

I can pay the CHF 1800.- to show the debtor that I mean business, then have up to 24 hours before the court date to retract. If I retract in time, I get CHF 1700.- back. If I decide to go through with it, the 1800 Franks covers costs involved and that is money lost, non-recoverable, gone with the wind

The debtor owes me just over 4k, minus the 1800, I should see just over 22 hundred out of it... unless the debtor has nothing to "Pfand" (a form of pawn)... That is the risk involved from my side. The debtor owns at least two businesses and both are Einzelfirmen, so he is personally responsible and liable with his personal worth and goods.

BTW, at this point in time, I am the first that opened the bankruptcy process.
JC
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Old 07.03.2013, 23:47
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand? Surely the latter must be cheaper?

And you said the Betreibungsamt tells you whether or not the debtor has paid after the 30 days, right? Or do you have to chase it up yourself?

BTW is this the first time you've had someone not pay up after being served with a Betreibung?
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Old 08.03.2013, 00:08
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand? Surely the latter must be cheaper?

And you said the Betreibungsamt tells you whether or not the debtor has paid after the 30 days, right? Or do you have to chase it up yourself?

BTW is this the first time you've had someone not pay up after being served with a Betreibung?
The Kreisgericht said it the judge would recommend Lohnpfandung (automatic paycheck removal) if nothing of value is available for Pfandung.

The Betreibungsamt did not receive any funds during the 30 days, neither did I - therefore it is my decision to apply the next step, Konkursandrohung.

No, this is not the first time. Have done a number of Betreibungs - value from CHF 55.- to (a different one) CHF 4000.-. Most are eventually paid off, sometime right away, others in monthly payments. One ended up in a Verlustschein and one in automatic paycheck removal. Both the Verlustschein and automatic paycheck removal were situations that the Konkurs (bankruptcy) was not initiated by myself, but others and I attached my claim onto theirs.
JC
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Old 08.03.2013, 08:08
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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I was wondering why you're going for the entire bankruptcy route and not just the Pfand?...
It seems a similar route some take in the UK. There you issue a statutory notice. If that doesn't result in payment, you go to court and ask the judge to issue a winding up notice against the business, on the grounds they can't pay their debts. If a business is in anyway solvent, they usually cough up, rather than go out of business!

Bad debt and late payment ruins company cashflow, and causes otherwise healthy companies to die.
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Old 30.04.2013, 17:30
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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Another update:

I visited the local Betreibungsamt, asked for an "Auszug" (printed log) of this person's history with them. Luckily (FMF), the debtor is not on social welfare

He came back with and A4 page full of history that goes back as far as July 2011 and new entries as current as the end of February 2013!! My options, as previously mentioned, are to begin the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process).

Today I received an invoice for CHF 1800.- and an appointment to appear before the judge in about four weeks.

I can pay the CHF 1800.- to show the debtor that I mean business, then have up to 24 hours before the court date to retract. If I retract in time, I get CHF 1700.- back. If I decide to go through with it, the 1800 Franks covers costs involved and that is money lost, non-recoverable, gone with the wind

The debtor owes me just over 4k, minus the 1800, I should see just over 22 hundred out of it... unless the debtor has nothing to "Pfand" (a form of pawn)... That is the risk involved from my side. The debtor owns at least two businesses and both are Einzelfirmen, so he is personally responsible and liable with his personal worth and goods.

BTW, at this point in time, I am the first that opened the bankruptcy process.
JC
did you initiate all of this yourself, or did you have a lawyer or other adviser? if a lawyer/adviser, can you give an indication of the cost of doing this?
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Old 30.04.2013, 17:37
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

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did you initiate all of this yourself, or did you have a lawyer or other adviser? if a lawyer/adviser, can you give an indication of the cost of doing this?
All on my own. Of course I asked questions along the way. The Betreibungsamt people head for cover when I turn the corner heading towards their office

So, essentially, my output looks like this:
CHF 73.- Betreibung
CHF 73.- Konkursandrohnung
CHF 15.- Print out of debtor's current B/KA and names of creditors
CHF 1800.- To the court to open the bankruptcy process - Here it goes before a judge who attempts to find a solution or puts his official stamp on the bankruptcy paperwork and it goes to the local Konkursamt for processing.

Payment will include the 2x 73.- plus the 100.- of the 1800.- which stays in the court. I will receive CHF 1700.- back from the court. Which leaves my output at CHF 15.-. Plus the debtor pays interest on the money originally owed!
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Old 10.04.2013, 22:15
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Hello,

Wow, I can empathise with you! It is very frustrating. I had a spate of "non-payers" last year as I was just starting out. I filed several Betreibungs without much success. (Not to say I wouldn't do it again)

I think the thing to be most aware, which I was not aware, is that each Canton has different "Methods" for contacting these people. Some will actually send a person and charge you exorbitant prices 75, 90, 100 CHF per visit. They don't tell you how many efforts they will make. Then, you get a large bill that usually is higher than the outstanding bill. My advice is to call the Betriebungs office of that Canton. They will talk you through it, usually. I had trouble with the French speaking cantons.

I would like to see some service available to small businesses whereby they can run a "check" on someone's name before offering credit. I have just joined Moneyhouse and will see how I get with that.

Good luck. It is a frustrating process, but I think, necessary.

Cheers,

Shannon
Prêt á Party
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Old 10.04.2013, 23:17
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

There are companies in Switzerland that offer just that service - to check the bonität (a so-called credit check) of a person or company. The service is not cheap - unless you need to check three to five a week, it does not pay off to enter the service.

For example, I joined a company a number of years ago when I ran a fairly successful webshop. They charged me to be a member, think it was CHF 480.- per year. Then they charged per check. The information delivered in the check was A through E. A being best, and hardly anyone had this rating. Only those that have had a loan through a partner company and paid everything on time get an A. B is what most people have. C if missing payment are reported. D if in Betreibung and E if found a true accident waiting to happen.

As I was doing checks, I would deliver with invoice only to those with A and B. C and D must prepay. E rating and I ignored them - because they were only ordering with no intentions to pay.

I don't remember exactly what the inkasso company charged to check. Think it was 5 or 6 Franks each - depending on how many pre-purchased credits. Then, if a check was made and the person had an A or B rating, and the customer didn't pay, the inkasso company went after the money for me, for free. If C, D or E... they charged me 50% of the amount I was trying to get out of the non-paying individual.

Lastly, after cancelling my "membership" in writing, the inkasso company continued to send me annual membership invoices - for a number of years. Each time I would call - the pour soul at the call center listened to my story and said they would call me back - never to return a call. Last couple years they even had the nerve to send me a payment reminder (Mahnung)... then I called and got a little loud... again, promise to call back and nothing heard of them... till the next annual membership invoice. I am waiting on their next invoice, should come any day now

And this is the same company that reports to Bern about the national paying moral here in Switzerland. So they are well known and can't keep a customer's record in order no matter what they do... what a screw up!

Long explanation... hope it helps someone.
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Old 12.04.2013, 23:43
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

The court appointment regarding the bankruptcy of my debtor was this last week. Since I have never taken a Betreibung this far, I called the judge to inquire about two things; 1) What should I expect from this appointment and 2) Do I have to be there.

His answers were:
1) Since the Betreibung, Zahlungsbefehl (payment order) and Konkursandrohung (bankruptcy process) were all well documented, the judge would ask the debtor about his financial condition and try to find a way to get the money to pay me. If payment was not possible within a reasonable amount of time... the bankruptcy would be opened and referred to the local Konkursamt (local bankrupcy office) for further processing.
2) No, I don't have to be there... but should be available via telephone in case there is a possible payment in the near future - to ask if I accept the payment date.

And, that is what happened. The judge called me and said the debtor had some money coming in near the end of this month. If I would be willing to wait till the end of April to receive the full payment (debt, interest, Betreibung and Konkursandrohung costs and the court costs). The judge continued, said if the payment is not confirmed by midnight on the 30th of April, he (the judge) would open the bankruptcy on my debtor himself on the first of May (or second depending if the holiday is recognized).

I agreed. Also asked about the CHF 1800.- that I paid in advance. The judge assured me the full amount would be returned (the debtor would pay the CHF 100.- court costs) if the money is transferred by the end of the month. If the bankruptcy is opened on the first of May, my CHF 1800.- will be applied to the case and cover the court costs. Also the CHF 1800.- will be added to the debt total.

So, the wait is on again... the saga continues
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Old 30.04.2013, 13:52
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Another update. Today, the last day of the month (important if you have been following this) has arrived.

First, this morning, the debtor calls me and says he will have the money tomorrow or the next day (1st or 2nd of May). Said he will bring cash by. If that is OK with me? He was polite and kind with his words.

I replied that the current agreement is between himself and the judge, it is not my decision. Also replied that I don't want cash, would rather have the money via bank transfer for documented proof of date.

Just before lunch I spoke with the judge. He had spoken with the debtor and explained to me, that his experience tells him to trust the debtor and wait till Friday. Fed up with the waiting and postponing, I expressed my interest in receiving the money owed to me and wish to teach the debtor a lesson in the process. Initially in the call, I wished to go forward with the Konkurseröffnung (bankruptcy process). The judge ensured me (but didn't promise) that his gut feeling is the debtor will pay given a few more days. Being Tuesday with the new deadline only a few days away, I agreed to wait.

So, newest status is; the money will be in my account on Friday (not sent on Friday ). The judge is going on vacation next week and wants to have this completely wrapped up by Friday. No money on Friday and the bankruptcy process will be opened - no questions asked.

FTTDK (For Those That Don't Know), if it goes to bankruptcy, the debtor will be forced to close two businesses, one of which with employees. Also, if the bankruptcy process is opened, other creditors may join in - upping the total in which will be recovered in the debtor's personal possessions (car, IT equipment, property, TV, stereo, investments). That is the way the sole proprietorship (Einzelfirma) works here.
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Old 30.04.2013, 17:04
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Re: Betreibung any experiences of the process.

Jumping Captain Lets hope the judge is right.

My case has took a turn today, I received a official letter which included a orange payslip (for fees?)
The odd thing about it is a hand written note which is very hard to read and even a German speaker cannot read it so I need to call the office tomorrow to find out what is what.

fingers crossed
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