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Old 15.01.2008, 17:11
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Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

Hi,

I am employed full-time and now setting up a GmBH in parallel. I want to keep both for a while (I have obtained a permission from my employer)

My question is; would I still be eligible for unemployment benefits, if I were to leave my regular jobs? If yes, do I have to pay unemployment insurance twice?


Thanks!

Özgür
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Old 15.01.2008, 17:22
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

The level of umemployment you pay and your eligibility will depend on the nature of your contract with, and the salary you draw from the company. The maximum insured salary is about 106k, and the premium about 2% per year. You must declare to SVA people your proposed salary for the coming year and they will bill you accordingly on one bill with the other insurances. It will be reconciled at the end of the year based on the turnout of your salary, but you are supposed to tell them of any changes of more than about 10% (if I remember correctly).

If you have part time work with one of your outstanding employers then I would imagine this is deducted from your unemployment insurance payout.
Certainly this is what happens when you take part time work when you start from a position of being unemployed.

Note that the waiting period differs if you are not working 100%...so it raises the question about multiple employers.

For simplicity , Personally I would not pay myself any salary from the Gmbh, until it was necessary. You can of course pay out your business expenses if applicable to your company in finding work (car etc) and buying equipment like important audio research gear.

Hope this helps,

dave




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Hi,

I am employed full-time and now setting up a GmBH in parallel. I want to keep both for a while (I have obtained a permission from my employer)

My question is; would I still be eligible for unemployment benefits, if I were to leave my regular jobs? If yes, do I have to pay unemployment insurance twice?


Thanks!

Özgür
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Old 15.01.2008, 17:30
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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The level of umemployment you pay and your eligibility will depend on the nature of your contract with, and the salary you draw from the company. The maximum insured salary is about 106k, and the premium about 2% per year.
Upped to 120 this year.
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:20
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

Thanks Dave. I am 100% percent employed. And I do not plan to be employed by my own company, which I will run in parallel. Can I assume that, I can receive unemployment benefits if I have to leave my current job?
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:32
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

If you get fired from your employer, then you can. If you resign then you usually can after a waiting period. I am not clear if there are any ramifications from the timing of you starting your company and suddenly being unemployed. Not sure of the legal position, but I imagine the powers-that-be would take a pretty dim view of someone running a profit-making company of which they were the major shareholder, director and manager and taking no salary while still on unemployment benefit...

dave




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Thanks Dave. I am 100% percent employed. And I do not plan to be employed by my own company, which I will run in parallel. Can I assume that, I can receive unemployment benefits if I have to leave my current job?
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:43
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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Thanks Dave. I am 100% percent employed. And I do not plan to be employed by my own company, which I will run in parallel. Can I assume that, I can receive unemployment benefits if I have to leave my current job?
No you can't - I understand there is a question on the application form asking whether you or your spouse owns a share in a GmbH. I believe that people sometimes tick the wrong box by mistake but I seem to remember somebody telling me that the office had actually checked in the register.

Regards

Hans
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:53
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

By register, I presume you mean Handelsregister, which lists Directors,foundation details addresses and signatories.

If you are fired by Dirty-Joes-Hula-Bar and are discovered to be founder with 19900chf of the 20000chf sharecapital in Hula-Girl-Services Gmbh and named Geschäftsführer in the Handelsregister, then I suspect a few eyebrows will be raised and at the very least your situation will be investigated before they pay out...

Owning a share in a Gmbh on the other hand as a non official, cannot be prohibited unless it is a significant asset affecting your ability to claim. I dont know the rules in these circumstances.

dave



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No you can't - I understand there is a question on the application form asking whether you or your spouse owns a share in a GmbH. I believe that people sometimes tick the wrong box by mistake but I seem to remember somebody telling me that the office had actually checked in the register.

Regards

Hans
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:57
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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Upped to 120 this year.
handy if it all goes tits up...
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:59
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

Disclaimer: I am not sure about the law
BUT
Common sense would say: if you are paying the unemployment subsidies and you suddenly loose your job, they would look at alternative sources of income.
If you have a GmbH which for some reason is not profitable, why would they not pay?

Cheers,
Cristina
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Old 15.01.2008, 18:59
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

It also means the accident insurance will go up. Not significant amount. What about the coordinating salary for compulsory BVG ? How much is that now ?

dave
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Old 15.01.2008, 19:49
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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By register, I presume you mean Handelsregister, which lists Directors,foundation details addresses and signatories.

If you are fired by Dirty-Joes-Hula-Bar and are discovered to be founder with 19900chf of the 20000chf sharecapital in Hula-Girl-Services Gmbh and named Geschäftsführer in the Handelsregister, then I suspect a few eyebrows will be raised and at the very least your situation will be investigated before they pay out...

Owning a share in a Gmbh on the other hand as a non official, cannot be prohibited unless it is a significant asset affecting your ability to claim. I dont know the rules in these circumstances.

dave
Unemployment is not means tested so assets are not questioned - and technically if you own shares in a GmbH then it should be noted in the Handelsregister - that's what it's there for. There is also a difference between Geschäftsführer and Gesellschafter. I'm sure the relevant unemployment form can be found on a website somewhere - the poster should download it and check.


As I understood from somebody I know he marched into the RAV and was confronted by a Handelsregister-Auszug with his name on it and given two weeks to do something about it. Another friend owned an inactive GmbH and wrote it over to his bookkeeper who made him sign a contract saying she would run it according to his instructions.

Whether you are getting a salary from the GmbH or not is not of interest it is the presumption of working with an aim to gain profit at a later date which disturbs the insurance people.

Hans
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Old 16.01.2008, 00:26
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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Disclaimer: I am not sure about the law
BUT
Common sense would say: if you are paying the unemployment subsidies and you suddenly loose your job, they would look at alternative sources of income.
If you have a GmbH which for some reason is not profitable, why would they not pay?

Cheers,
Cristina
But this like many other things has nothing to do with common sense. Neither has it to do with whether you are a gesellschafter in a GmbH or not. What it has to do with is the function you have within the company you (intend to) own. If this function is similar in nature to that of an employer then you are excluded from being able to claim. Also don't think of the bright idea of having the company transferred to your wife as you will still be disqualified.

It is covered here: Art. 31 Abs. 3 lit. c AVIG

Note also it is irrespective of the fact you were working for another company and paying into the unemployment fund there - if you have an employer like function elsewhere you are not able to claim...

And yes they generally do run through the company register to find officers of companies for the simple reason that many top managers are also directors of other companies and greedy...
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Old 16.01.2008, 00:27
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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Thanks Dave. I am 100% percent employed. And I do not plan to be employed by my own company, which I will run in parallel. Can I assume that, I can receive unemployment benefits if I have to leave my current job?
In other words no you cannot...
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Old 16.01.2008, 17:35
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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But this like many other things has nothing to do with common sense. Neither has it to do with whether you are a gesellschafter in a GmbH or not. What it has to do with is the function you have within the company you (intend to) own. If this function is similar in nature to that of an employer then you are excluded from being able to claim. Also don't think of the bright idea of having the company transferred to your wife as you will still be disqualified.

It is covered here: Art. 31 Abs. 3 lit. c AVIG

Note also it is irrespective of the fact you were working for another company and paying into the unemployment fund there - if you have an employer like function elsewhere you are not able to claim...

And yes they generally do run through the company register to find officers of companies for the simple reason that many top managers are also directors of other companies and greedy...
This is a really important piece of imformation, glad we touched on it. Do not find this very fair but I guess it was done to prevent abuses and I understand that... Thanks for the info
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Old 16.01.2008, 17:43
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

I tried reading the reference, and my understanding of it is that claims for unemployment will not be considered while the individual is an officer of the company, even if he resigns. So where does leave the director of a company that is obliged to pay into the fund, but cannot claim ? If the company were to liquidate, the process will take a year in any case by which time the situation will have changed. So it seems like company officers are wasting 2% of 120k (maximum insured salary) in 2008.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

dave


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But this like many other things has nothing to do with common sense. Neither has it to do with whether you are a gesellschafter in a GmbH or not. What it has to do with is the function you have within the company you (intend to) own. If this function is similar in nature to that of an employer then you are excluded from being able to claim. Also don't think of the bright idea of having the company transferred to your wife as you will still be disqualified.

It is covered here: Art. 31 Abs. 3 lit. c AVIG

Note also it is irrespective of the fact you were working for another company and paying into the unemployment fund there - if you have an employer like function elsewhere you are not able to claim...

And yes they generally do run through the company register to find officers of companies for the simple reason that many top managers are also directors of other companies and greedy...
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Old 16.01.2008, 17:48
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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I tried reading the reference, and my understanding of it is that claims for unemployment will not be considered while the individual is an officer of the company, even if he resigns. So where does leave the director of a company that is obliged to pay into the fund, but cannot claim ? If the company were to liquidate, the process will take a year in any case by which time the situation will have changed. So it seems like company officers are wasting 2% of 120k in 2008.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

dave
I've seen a case of this where the company officers were able to claim unemployment the moment the company was put into liquidation. IIRC - but I may be wrong - they were not able to claim on wages lost during the three months the company didn't pay the employees. Since the Konkursamt initially took over the liquidation the Verwaltungsratspräsident (it was an AG) was freed from the burden of liquidation, right up until the point where the Konkursamt gave it up because of lack of assets at which point the Verwaltungsratspräsident had to give it another go - he was claiming at that point but whether he got it or not ... no idea

Hans
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Old 16.01.2008, 22:31
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

My line of thinking goes in the same direction as your. Seems very "unswiss" that they would force you to pay an insurance you later have no right to claim. So I suspect that there are situations where you may be eligeble for unemployment money although you are the owner of a company. I have no idea though which those situations may be.



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I tried reading the reference, and my understanding of it is that claims for unemployment will not be considered while the individual is an officer of the company, even if he resigns. So where does leave the director of a company that is obliged to pay into the fund, but cannot claim ? If the company were to liquidate, the process will take a year in any case by which time the situation will have changed. So it seems like company officers are wasting 2% of 120k (maximum insured salary) in 2008.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

dave
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Old 17.01.2008, 12:31
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

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My line of thinking goes in the same direction as your. Seems very "unswiss" that they would force you to pay an insurance you later have no right to claim. So I suspect that there are situations where you may be eligeble for unemployment money although you are the owner of a company. I have no idea though which those situations may be.
Ah ha not quite right in your assumption. It is of course very Swiss as they are covering every eventuality. As the Irish would say to be sure, to be sure...

There is another situation I will cover while writing this. Look at those on an L permit or restricted B they too pay the money into the unemployment fund and also are not able to claim but...

You pay the money into the fund and at the time of payment have no right to claim. The rules of claiming are though that you have paid into the fund for 12 months over the last 2 years and are integrated into the Swiss economy as far as employment is concerned.

Just because your current situation does not entitle you to unemployment benefit (it would not anyway because you are working) does not mean to say that the situation will not change in the future.

So taking the case of the permit restricted employees. They have paid in for x months or years and then change permits to an unrestricted permit. Accordingly their status changes to being able ot claim benefit. They fail to pass the probation period and thus after 3 months are unemployed. Because they have previously paid a total of more than 12 months in the last 2 years they can claim immediately.

Taking the case of the owner/partial owner (>10%) of a company, as soon as they are relieved of their ownership or the company is delisted they can claim - assuming of course they have paid in 12 months over the last 2 years.

Last edited by Richard; 23.01.2008 at 09:19.
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Old 17.01.2008, 12:50
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

Ah, yeah that's logical and thus, again very Swiss :-)


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Ah ha not quite right in your assumption. It is of course very Swiss as they are covering every eventuality. As the Irish would say to be sure, to be sure...

There is another situation I will cover while writing this. Look at those on an L permit or restricted B they too pay the money into the unemployment fund and also are not able to claim but...

You pay the money into the fund and at the time of payment have no right to claim. The rules of claiming are though that you have paid into the fund for 12 months over the last 2 years and are integrated into the Swiss economy as far as employment is concerned.

Just because your current situation does not entitle you to unemployment benefit (it would not anyway because you are working) does not mean to say that the situation will not change in the future.

So taking the case of the permit restricted employees. They have paid in for x months or years and then change permits to an unrestricted permit. Accordingly there status changes to being able ot claim benefit. They fail to pass the probation period and thus after 3 months are unemployed. Because they have previously paid a total of more than 12 months in the last 2 years they can claim immediately.

Taking the case of the owner/partial owner (>10%) of a company, as soon as they are relieved of their ownership or the company is delisted they can claim - assuming of course they have paid in 12 months over the last 2 years.
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Old 29.05.2008, 08:57
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Re: Setting up a GmBh & unemployment benefits

Thanks Richard for clarifying this.

I own an IT consultancy GmbH and wondered what would happen if the contracts dried up (a possibility in the current market).

Effectively I am paying 2% towards something I'll never be able to claim against.

You do have to state whether you or your partner own the company:

http://www.jobarea.ch/dateien/Formul...ale_antrag.pdf

The only way around this I guess, would be either to wind up the company, or maybe work for another company that you don't own for a while.

It does seem a little artificial though.
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