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  #81  
Old 23.09.2019, 14:19
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Tobacco companies losing out? They will simply switch to e-cigarette production, which many are already doing. http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intel...f-big-tobacco/

The potential market for them is staggering. It's the future.
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What a load of rubbish. E-cigarettes are a great tool in quitting smoking, they greatly decrease the health risks, and Switzerland is a heavy smoking place.
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I am not saying that e-cigarettes are 100% safe with no adverse effects whatsoever, but they do certainly lack many of the main drawbacks of traditional cigarettes.
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Don't underestimate the change which will happen in the next few years. The health benefits of not inhaling smoke are huge, and the switchover from tobacco to e-cigarettes will have important implications: loss of tax revenue from cigarette sales, loss of tax revenue from the tobacco multinationals, boost in life expectancy. It's a revolution, and probably nobody will be smoking in ten years' time. Possibly sooner.
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Ditto, there are a huge amount of benefits over traditional cigarettes, it's obvious, and the sooner people start thinking objectively about it the better.
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I think the sheer amount more chemicals in cigarettes makes them insrinsically more dangerous than e-cigarettes, and I will wait until concrete long-term studies appear that say otherwise before changing that opinion. You are of course entitles to whatever opinion you please.
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I think the jury is still out on that one as not enough research has been done on possible side effects - both physical ones and the other fear that it may get youngsters hooked onto these and then real cigarettes.
The Jury's coming back in.

The posts above did, at the time, look like marketing material from cigarette manufacturers in the the 1950s.

It looks like real-life data is coming in and e-cigarettes are not the panacea that certain forum users thought they would be.

Pretty horrific side effects.

Just in case the six deaths and 380 reported cases of severe lung disease aren't motivation enough to put down the JUUL.
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  #82  
Old 25.09.2019, 10:42
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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It looks like real-life data is coming in and e-cigarettes are not the panacea that certain forum users thought they would be.
That is yet to be seen. E-cigs have been around for some time now so one would expect a gradual increase of those victims, yet what we see is something much more resembling a sudden increase. And, of course, the vape's composition may be changeable to prevent those effects, assuming that's what causes them.
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  #83  
Old 25.09.2019, 10:59
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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That is yet to be seen. E-cigs have been around for some time now so one would expect a gradual increase of those victims, yet what we see is something much more resembling a sudden increase. And, of course, the vape's composition may be changeable to prevent those effects, assuming that's what causes them.
Or is it a sudden increase in realising the link between e-cigarettes and lung damage?

Not that this would put a of people off. The link between smoking cigarettes and lung cancer was made in the 1950s but 70 years later, people are still smoking everywhere.


Let's not make the same mistakes with e-cigarettes.
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  #84  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:01
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Or is it a sudden increase in realising the link between e-cigarettes and lung damage?

Not that this would put a of people off. The link between smoking cigarettes and lung cancer was made in the 1950s but 70 years later, people are still smoking everywhere.


Let's not make the same mistakes with e-cigarettes.
In some cases it's even the same people

I'm not surprised about the article really. While some don't understand why I enjoy my tobacco, I don't understand why I should enjoy inhaling kiwi and vanilla instead of just eating it.
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  #85  
Old 25.09.2019, 14:53
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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In some cases it's even the same people

I'm not surprised about the article really. While some don't understand why I enjoy my tobacco, I don't understand why I should enjoy inhaling kiwi and vanilla instead of just eating it.
Kids love it. Kids are the next generation of customers.
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  #86  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:05
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

Without reading the whole thread again..

We know that these ill / dead people were vaping illeagal/backyard/homemade (THC) liquid ? They were not vaping some big brand like JUL.

It's a pretty important point no? Nobody cares when a person dies from smoking tabaco of drinking alcohol but it's news if they die drinking some bootleg vodka or counterfeit Chinese Tabaco.

We seem to be missing this point? It's not plain old vaping, they were playing with fire.

Example

Example


Either it's simply a case of experimentation gone wrong.. Or maybe somebody is attacking the vape industry?
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  #87  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:21
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

Thank you!

An other classic one this one was! "See I was right ..." .... here's the part of information that totally proves it.

okey dokey, off I go, hitting the unsubscrybe button on my way out.
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  #88  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:37
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Without reading the whole thread again..

We know that these ill / dead people were vaping illeagal/backyard/homemade (THC) liquid ? They were not vaping some big brand like JUL.

It's a pretty important point no? Nobody cares when a person dies from smoking tabaco of drinking alcohol but it's news if they die drinking some bootleg vodka or counterfeit Chinese Tabaco.

We seem to be missing this point? It's not plain old vaping, they were playing with fire.

Example

Example


Either it's simply a case of experimentation gone wrong.. Or maybe somebody is attacking the vape industry?
Doctors maybe?

The following is from the BMJ about a young female vapor:

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A young female vaper presented with insidious onset cough, progressive dyspnoea on exertion, fever, night sweats and was in respiratory failure when admitted to hospital. Clinical examination was unremarkable. Haematological tests revealed only thrombocytopenia, which was long standing, and her biochemical and inflammatory markers were normal. Chest radiograph and high-resolution CT showed diffuse ground-glass infiltrates with reticulation. She was initially treated with empirical steroids and there was improvement in her oxygenation, which facilitated further tests. Since the bronchoscopy and high-volume lavage was unyielding, a video-assisted thoracoscopicsurgical biopsy was done later and was suggestive of lipoid pneumonia. The only source of lipid was the vegetable glycerine found in e-cigarette (EC). Despite our advice to quit vaping, she continued to use EC with different flavours and there is not much improvement in her clinical and spirometric parameters.
Link

Vegetable glycerine is the carrier liquid in normal off-the-shelf e-cigarettes.

It's good that Curley has 'unsubscribed' from this thread as her stupid comments were wasting everyone's time.
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  #89  
Old 25.09.2019, 15:56
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Doctors maybe?

The following is from the BMJ about a young female vapor:



Link

Vegetable glycerine is the carrier liquid in normal off-the-shelf e-cigarettes.

It's good that Curley has 'unsubscribed' from this thread as her stupid comments were wasting everyone's time.
I also think that something will come up in years to come, sucking pretty much any heated chemical into the lungs is probably not gonna end well after 30 years.. For me the bad thing is that kids are thinking that this is cool, not that adults are switching.

This particular episode seems to be a knee jerk reaction with most of the mainstream media totally missing the point, that those who have died and those who are ill were all vaping some bootleg liquid. the detail is buried in the articles but nowhere near the headlines.

Big tobacco is powerful, otherwise smoking would have been banned decades ago. Tin foil hat says maybe they want this little $10bn drop in profit obstacle taken out of the equation.

Vaping Stats :

We have 8 dead and 500 possible ill people from this (illeagal) vape episode -
45 million people are vaping worldwide


What are the smoking stats according to the CDC

".. .Worldwide, tobacco use causes more than 7 million deaths per year.."

Why no knee jerk there ?
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  #90  
Old 25.09.2019, 16:13
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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.

This particular episode seems to be a knee jerk reaction with most of the mainstream media totally missing the point, that those who have died and those who are ill were all vaping some bootleg liquid. the detail is buried in the articles but nowhere near the headlines.
Not true - did you read the BMJ link I posted?

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.

Big tobacco is powerful, otherwise smoking would have been banned decades ago. Tin foil hat says maybe they want this little $10bn drop in profit obstacle taken out of the equation.
You'd think that as they were so powerful, they'd make vaping work. Philip Morris has recently pulled out of merger talks with Juul - who have the greatest U.S. market share.

With their attitude to public health (they don't give a s**t) - that's a strange reaction - unless they have some idea where this will all end up.
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  #91  
Old 25.09.2019, 16:16
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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".. .Worldwide, tobacco use causes more than 7 million deaths per year.."
The latency period for getting lung cancer from smoking can be fifty years!

No one's getting cancer from vaping ....yet

BMJ again:

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It is also a fact that there are literally thousands of different combinations of compounds and flavourings that can be vaped. These fluids are currently lightly regulated. In one study, all 122 vaping refill liquids studied contained substances having some level of hazard/risk of danger according to the globally harmonised classification system for respiratory irritants. Ö
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  #92  
Old 25.09.2019, 16:30
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Not true - did you read the BMJ link I posted?



You'd think that as they were so powerful, they'd make vaping work. Philip Morris has recently pulled out of merger talks with Juul - who have the greatest U.S. market share.

With their attitude to public health (they don't give a s**t) - that's a strange reaction - unless they have some idea where this will all end up.
Philip Morris has recently received FDA consent to market their IQOS product as less harmfull, currently its only available in 4? Pretty small Markets..USA is not one of them.. With the FDA ďendorsementĒ they will probably shake up the market big time.. They still get to sell tobacco but itís less harmful.. win.
hence they probably donít need JUl anymore.. or the lawsuits that they are attracting..
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  #93  
Old 25.09.2019, 16:45
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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hence they probably donít need JUl anymore.. or the lawsuits that they are attracting..
I'm sure they would have liked that market too but you're right - with lawsuits and the fact that it's being banned left, right and centre means it's just too hot for them.
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  #94  
Old 25.09.2019, 17:13
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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You'd think that as they were so powerful, they'd make vaping work. Philip Morris has recently pulled out of merger talks with Juul - who have the greatest U.S. market share.

With their attitude to public health (they don't give a s**t) - that's a strange reaction - unless they have some idea where this will all end up.
Thatís not strictly accurate. Philip Morris were in talks to re-merge with Altria ( having split from them about 10 years ago) who own a 35% stake in Juul.
The whole thing was fraught with difficulties from the outset and the Juul thing was just the final nail in the coffin really.
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Old 25.09.2019, 18:27
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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Thatís not strictly accurate. Philip Morris were in talks to re-merge with Altria ( having split from them about 10 years ago) who own a 35% stake in Juul.
The whole thing was fraught with difficulties from the outset and the Juul thing was just the final nail in the coffin really.
I seem to have accidentally groaned you on my phone, oops

Yeah Altria were going to distribute (and make?) the PM heating device in the USA - until today pretty much.. And the Juul CEO has quit/fired..Interesting timing. PM would still have controlled the tobacco product.

Here in CH they distribute the device themselves i'm pretty sure.. I'm sure they'll either do that or find another distributor..

I think a lot will change in the market with the heating devices and with the FDA nod, PM should own it. People will read 'less bad' as safe and they'll launch it world-wide.. Others have and will copy it but those won't have the FDA nod for a while.

Just my 2c
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Old 25.09.2019, 19:07
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

IQOS (heated tobacco) in Switzerland business is very, very profitable today because the tobacco tax on it is only 12% instead of regular 54,6%.
It is like having a money-printing licence.

https://www.watson.ch/schweiz/aargau...ger-zigaretten
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Old 25.09.2019, 19:13
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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I seem to have accidentally groaned you on my phone, oops

Yeah Altria were going to distribute (and make?) the PM heating device in the USA - until today pretty much.. And the Juul CEO has quit/fired..Interesting timing. PM would still have controlled the tobacco product.

Here in CH they distribute the device themselves i'm pretty sure.. I'm sure they'll either do that or find another distributor..

I think a lot will change in the market with the heating devices and with the FDA nod, PM should own it. People will read 'less bad' as safe and they'll launch it world-wide.. Others have and will copy it but those won't have the FDA nod for a while.

Just my 2c
I think youíre right.
They are desperate to get IQOS onto the US market and the FDA approval is a big thing for them. They probably donít need Altria anymore so the merger was pretty much dead in the water.
All the bad publicity for vaping products has come at a very good time for them,

No worries about the groan, I do that when scrolling on my phone and sometimes donít notice until I receive a PM about it from the recipient.
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Old 25.09.2019, 19:14
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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IQOS (heated tobacco) in Switzerland business is very, very profitable today because the tobacco tax on it is only 12% instead of regular 54,6%.
It is like having a money-printing licence.

So when they all start getting health problems that need treatment (these product still contain tar and other hazardous chemicals), they won't be able to proclaim, as they do currently with cigarettes, in a smug fashion that it's okay as they pay so, so much tax on them.

Who in government is going to refuse the bribes and push for the customs tariffs codes to be changed to be inline with cigarettes?
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Old 25.09.2019, 19:18
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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I think youíre right.
They are desperate to get IQOS onto the US market and the FDA approval is a big thing for them. They probably donít need Altria anymore so the merger was pretty much dead in the water.
All the bad publicity for vaping products has come at a very good time for them,

No worries about the groan, I do that when scrolling on my phone and sometimes donít notice until I receive a PM about it from the recipient.
Of course as is standard crazy confusing business .. Altria is the parent company of PM (USA) .. Iqos is a PM (international) product, a separate entity with nothing to do with Altria.. (pretty sure)

So how it was exactly going to be run .. Who knows..

And the bad publicity .. Amazing timing eh..
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Old 25.09.2019, 20:18
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Re: e-cigarettes - is there a business?

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I seem to have accidentally groaned you on my phone, oops

Yeah Altria were going to distribute (and make?) the PM heating device in the USA - until today pretty much.. And the Juul CEO has quit/fired..Interesting timing. PM would still have controlled the tobacco product.

Here in CH they distribute the device themselves i'm pretty sure.. I'm sure they'll either do that or find another distributor..

I think a lot will change in the market with the heating devices and with the FDA nod, PM should own it. People will read 'less bad' as safe and they'll launch it world-wide.. Others have and will copy it but those won't have the FDA nod for a while.

Just my 2c
It's actually worse!
On here (https://ch.iqos.com/en#) they butter you up with <<Heat is the essence of many things in life. It warms us, nurtures us, and feeds our planet ....>> and <<Backed by science and our exceptional HeatControlô Technology, IQOS heats tobacco rather than burning it ....>> well, 350įC - info given further down - is pretty hot. And then <<giving you the satisfaction of the true tobacco taste with benefits that traditional smoking just canít deliver; no cigarette smell, no ash and no smoke.>>

I think this is pretty bad. The people who smoke tobacco know what they're doing. And it was not really Marlboro's "taste of freedom and adventure" or the "I'd walk a mile for a Camel" (what was that supposed to mean, anyway? Camel smokers are sportive? ) that got them into it. It was just normal advertisement bantering like "mit Ovo chasch's nŲd besser aber lšnger" or the Skoda Kamiq meaningless "because you know what you want". One I will always remember was a perfume ad in England that said at the bottom "kills flies too". (Although I remember the slogan yet not the name of the perfume= not very effective, huh?).

The people who will be .... iqosing? LOL, what will they call that? .... will read above linked page and call it "having researched well" before buying/using it. In times of head-line readers only and opponents of the same kind, that IQOS page will get away as "serious information".

The next thing I expect ist the homeopathic cigarette?

To me the <<the true tobacco taste with benefits that traditional smoking just canít deliver; no cigarette smell, no ash and no smoke.>> is chewing tobacco
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