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  #161  
Old 05.05.2016, 13:47
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Re: real estate investing

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I think you may have overlooked the dividend. Looking at the link there is no dividend paid out, though any real estate fund is presumably taking in rental income. The trouble with Real Estate funds is the assets are fairly illiquid and take time to sell, so any increase in the value is based on valuations given by real estate brokers and this can be a bit subjective.

The fund has to live and is managed, so a lot of the income they bring in is spent on admin fees, salaries, legal fees and building up a reserve for redemptions. The problem is when the redemptions are so high they cannot pay out, as they have to sell the underlying asset, as happened in 2008, they will suspend the fund and all redemptions leaving you high and dry.
Paying or not paying a dividend is a fund policy (Ausschüttung/Thesaurierung). I'm happy not to receive dividends as long as the fund is gaining value and I don't have multiple years of lock-in.

Also aware of higher management costs of active funds. But for that you have more growth in the fund than in other "safe" instruments. If you look at this particular one, it's 130M CHF, which seems to be really miniscule in fund-scale. Could qualify for a "small but fine" investment with enough caution. How they hedge the risk of redemptions is again fund policy I need to take a look at. Thanks for mentioning this point, though.
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  #162  
Old 05.05.2016, 19:01
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Re: real estate investing

The point I was trying to make, but did not express it properly, so my fault, is that if you assume an average dividend of 3% the real growth is a lot less.

If you take the 5 year average (and let's say the 7.2% for 2016 is for the full year) you come to 6.60% p.a. Take out 3% and you have the real growth at +-3.30% which is not so exciting.

For me the only way to invest in property is to buy, renovate and rent out with a ten year horizon.
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  #163  
Old 06.05.2016, 19:16
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Re: real estate investing

Take a look at the latest credit suisse study on the Swiss housing market, the % vacancy graphic on page 70 should help you decide where to invest if you're brave enough....too illiquid an asset class for my portfolio :

https://www.credit-suisse.com/media/...ie-2015-en.pdf

Baz
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  #164  
Old 06.05.2016, 19:36
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Re: real estate investing

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For me the only way to invest in property is to buy, renovate and rent out with a ten year horizon outside of Switzerland.
fixed that for you
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  #165  
Old 07.05.2016, 16:45
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Re: real estate investing

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fixed that for you
I'd be very interested to know which markets you consider to be better for a property investment and why?

The ones I'm most familiar with are:
Germany and the Netherlands: High buying costs, relatively high financing costs and a heavily regulated rental market.

Italy: All the above + extremely bureaucratic

France, Spain and Portugal: All the above not to mention inheritance taxes in France

UK: High buying costs, penalties if you own more than one property, even higher buying costs if you use a corporate vehicle and extortionate costs if that vehicle is based offshore. A boom/bust/boom market so if your timing is not spot on you could end up losing a lot. Relatively low rents.

Switzerland: low buying costs, very low interest rates (I'm currently paying 0.6%) easily enforceable contracts, a deposit scheme that is simplicity itself to set up and incurs no charges, steady increases, good rents with a very reasonable rate of return on both principal and capital invested.
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  #166  
Old 07.05.2016, 16:48
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Re: real estate investing

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Switzerland: low buying costs, very low interest rates (I'm currently paying 0.6%) easily enforceable contracts, a deposit scheme that is simplicity itself to set up and incurs no charges, steady increases, good rents with a very reasonable rate of return on both principal and capital invested.
Rents don't increase if the person stays, mine hardly changed in over 15 years , I could have had a reduction due to falling interest rates which I never applied for. Remember inflation has always been low so salaries hardly increase either & have fallen over 15 years for many people.
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  #167  
Old 07.05.2016, 19:57
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Re: real estate investing

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I'd be very interested to know which markets you consider to be better for a property investment and why?

The ones I'm most familiar with are:
Germany and the Netherlands: High buying costs, relatively high financing costs and a heavily regulated rental market.

Italy: All the above + extremely bureaucratic

France, Spain and Portugal: All the above not to mention inheritance taxes in France

UK: High buying costs, penalties if you own more than one property, even higher buying costs if you use a corporate vehicle and extortionate costs if that vehicle is based offshore. A boom/bust/boom market so if your timing is not spot on you could end up losing a lot. Relatively low rents.

Switzerland: low buying costs, very low interest rates (I'm currently paying 0.6%) easily enforceable contracts, a deposit scheme that is simplicity itself to set up and incurs no charges, steady increases, good rents with a very reasonable rate of return on both principal and capital invested.
Netherlands and France. Buying costs are not high and the rental market is not over regulated (only in specific sectors). Inheritance tax can be avoided in France. Safe to mention that these countries are in Euro land and not in CHF land.

Your view of Switzerland seems a little optimistic in my opinion.
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  #168  
Old 07.05.2016, 23:28
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Re: real estate investing

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Switzerland: low buying costs, very low interest rates (I'm currently paying 0.6%) easily enforceable contracts, a deposit scheme that is simplicity itself to set up and incurs no charges, steady increases, good rents with a very reasonable rate of return on both principal and capital invested.
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  #169  
Old 09.05.2016, 19:46
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Re: real estate investing

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Switzerland: low buying costs, very low interest rates (I'm currently paying 0.6%) easily enforceable contracts, a deposit scheme that is simplicity itself to set up and incurs no charges, steady increases, good rents with a very reasonable rate of return on both principal and capital invested.
you omitted your "renovating" part, which can really tip the balance into the negatives if you do it with Swiss manual labour prices. Without renovation, if the market tumbles, the altbau's that are rented in a whiff today in Aargau will become unrentable quickly.
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  #170  
Old 12.08.2016, 12:55
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Re: real estate investing

Seems the "10% on real estate" can be now had without the million dollar mortgage attached to it.

http://www.swissfunddata.ch/sfdpub/d...s/detail/38237

http://www.morningstar.ch/ch/funds/s...?id=F00000HHOD

http://www.finanzen.ch/fonds/Swissca...iss-Commercial

Any scrutiny on these 3, dear fellow EF'ers?
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  #171  
Old 12.08.2016, 13:08
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Re: real estate investing

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Seems the "10% on real estate" can be now had without the million dollar mortgage attached to it.

http://www.swissfunddata.ch/sfdpub/d...s/detail/38237

http://www.morningstar.ch/ch/funds/s...?id=F00000HHOD

http://www.finanzen.ch/fonds/Swissca...iss-Commercial

Any scrutiny on these 3, dear fellow EF'ers?
Just looked at the first one, something bothers me up 49.87% in 2 years. I don't believe this is accurate.

The third one has similar no's, scratching my head unless it's some sort of 'stock split/ consolidation'' price that has not been calculated

There are also commission charges to pay, I don't know if its an initial charge.
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  #172  
Old 12.08.2016, 14:47
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Re: real estate investing

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Just looked at the first one, something bothers me up 49.87% in 2 years. I don't believe this is accurate.

The third one has similar no's, scratching my head unless it's some sort of 'stock split/ consolidation'' price that has not been calculated

There are also commission charges to pay, I don't know if its an initial charge.
well, not sure what "counts" in these numbers, but for the first, they pay a gross 4% dividend every year plus you get your price increase in the share price.

This stands in the yearly report of 2015, but I'm not exactly sure which one to look at and what the actual definitions are

Mietzinsausfallrate4) 1.88%
Fremdfinanzierungsquote 14.92%
Betriebsgewinnmarge (EBIT) 49.91%
Fondsbetriebsaufwandquote (TER) (Bruttovermögen) 0.73%
Fondsbetriebsaufwandquote (TER) (Börsenwert) 0.75%
Fondsbetriebsaufwandquote (TER) (Nettovermögen) 0.96%
Eigenkapitalrendite „Return on Equity“ (ROE) 4.81%
Ausschüttungsrendite 2.27%
Ausschüttungsquote SFAMA (Payout Ratio) 98.02%
Effektive Ausschüttungsquote (Payout Ratio)5) 74.88%
Agio per Ende Juni 35.27%
12-Monats-Performance per 30. Juni6) 15.99%
SXI Real Estate® Funds TR 12.88%
Anlagerendite 5.05%
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  #173  
Old 12.08.2016, 15:53
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Re: real estate investing

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Seems the "10% on real estate" can be now had without the million dollar mortgage attached to it.

http://www.swissfunddata.ch/sfdpub/d...s/detail/38237

http://www.morningstar.ch/ch/funds/s...?id=F00000HHOD

http://www.finanzen.ch/fonds/Swissca...iss-Commercial

Any scrutiny on these 3, dear fellow EF'ers?
The funds trade way above book(FIR: 49.07% Agio), if you redeem them you'll take a big hit (IIRC redeeming Swiss real estate funds comes with a long waiting period like at least 12 months or something). And if you want to sell them using the exchange what you get is a matter of supply vs demand, ie you may get less than book - essentially same as a stock.

The second one by Credit Suisse looks like a fund of funds (just by its name alone) so you pay TER and all other costs on two levels. Not sure how they determine NAV, if everybody else also wants out when you want to sell you may be presented some nasty surprises - that's not a certainty, just a possibility. But I dislike fund of funds anyway.

Swisscanto seems to come with 5% sales commission, an absolute No-Go to me: You have to pay them to let them make money on your money.

If I had to pick one of the three it would clearly be FIR.
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  #174  
Old 13.06.2017, 15:56
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Re: real estate investing

I just got this "let's buy some property together" concept as a self-signed up spam:

https://crowdhouse.ch/de/immobilien/26

The concept seems interesting enough, although I've not dug into much about the exit strategy, which might be the killer to even start. And jumping the initial barrier of 100k is also a bit steep.

Any experience among fellow EF'ers?
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