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Old 24.11.2016, 18:15
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swiss, investing in french real estate

Hello!

I'm a young guy from Geneva who's worked for 2 years in Switzerland and have a nice little sum saved up. I would really like to invest it, and since I am scared of investing in the stock market right now as i feel there will be an imminent crash soon, I'm thinking of real estate, and as you know swiss real estate is very high, to high for me to be able to invest in. Naturally, I think of the closest possible solution, which is France...

I have been eyeing a couple possible studios, especially in Annemasse, where the ceva train project will be built and where the tram line 12 will be prolonged. the studios are all around 80-90k.

Thoughts? Has any body here done something similar before? Any advice? Also welcome to taking any advice about other ways i could invest my money?

Appreciate any help
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Old 24.11.2016, 18:21
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Hello!

I'm a young guy from Geneva who's worked for 2 years in Switzerland and have a nice little sum saved up. I would really like to invest it, and since I am scared of investing in the stock market right now as i feel there will be an imminent crash soon, I'm thinking of real estate, and as you know swiss real estate is very high, to high for me to be able to invest in. Naturally, I think of the closest possible solution, which is France...

I have been eyeing a couple possible studios, especially in Annemasse, where the ceva train project will be built and where the tram line 12 will be prolonged. the studios are all around 80-90k.

Thoughts? Has any body here done something similar before? Any advice? Also welcome to taking any advice about other ways i could invest my money?

Appreciate any help
The costs & taxes when buying are about 10%
Service charges could easily be 4k a year
Annual taxes 1k plus
CGT for first 23 years of ownership on a sale
Social charges on a sale for the first 30 years of ownership.
Agents fees on a sale with VAT could be 10%
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Old 24.11.2016, 19:51
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Agents fees on a sale with VAT could be 10%
Wrong. We're just selling a flat in France and it's the buyers who pay the agency. 5% agency fee, not 10%.
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:06
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Wrong. We're just selling a flat in France and it's the buyers who pay the agency. 5% agency fee, not 10%.
You will find on lower transactions the fees are higher.... The OP is talking about a very cheap apartment.

When I bought a place in France, the seller ended up paying the agent 8% plus TVA thats roughly 9.6%.
5% plus TVA is roughly 6% which is money the buyer is paying that does not go in the sellers pocket.

Perhaps you would state the transaction value your talking about, then we can see if it's relevant for the OP or not. Please also state which department in France as who pays what varies by area.
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:07
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Wrong. We're just selling a flat in France and it's the buyers who pay the agency. 5% agency fee, not 10%.

Pssst, I think the guy wants to buy
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:37
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

so, you dont think it is a good idea?
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:42
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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so, you dont think it is a good idea?
Depends what it's for & why, as a rental investment for sure not.
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:46
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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so, you dont think it is a good idea?
Personally, I always think real estate is a good idea. If you're buying to rent out, you may need an agency to take care of the tenants, deal with maintenance issues, etc. This will cost you a percentage of your rental income. But there is always demand.
It always comes down to the location. You need to do some research ...
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:42
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Pssst, I think the guy wants to buy
Psst, read the post. Fmf answered this:

"Agents fees on a sale with VAT could be 10%"
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Old 24.11.2016, 21:59
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Psst, read the post. Fmf answered this:

"Agents fees on a sale with VAT could be 10%"
I know you not the brightest spark here, but I will try to humor you.

Estate agents fees are generally in the 5-10% range PLUS TVA, on a lower price sub 100K apartment the amount will be close to 10% with TVA included.

There is an advantage to the seller paying the fees as the property is proportionately cheaper & Notary fees are charged as a percentage of the purchase price.
Notary fees are only 3% of a new build, when the property is over 5 years old the costs will be in the 8-12% range.
You have not said if your sale was in department 74 where the OP is thinking of buying.
If you believe the fees could ever cost the seller nothing, you are delusional.
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Old 24.11.2016, 22:48
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Wrong. We're just selling a flat in France and it's the buyers who pay the agency. 5% agency fee, not 10%.
Serious query, we'll be selling a house in France next year (also in 74) and have been told that as sellers the agents fees will be ~5%, and that before we get into notary fees, etc.How are you managing to avoid this and making the buyer pay it instead?
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Old 24.11.2016, 23:02
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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Serious query, we'll be selling a house in France next year (also in 74) and have been told that as sellers the agents fees will be ~5%, and that before we get into notary fees, etc.How are you managing to avoid this and making the buyer pay it instead?
We negotiated with the agency from the outset, and told them the price we wanted "net vendeur". Although they tried for 6% initially, we told them it would be 5% as we wanted the buyer to foot the bill (to avoid capital gains tax) but that we also needed to raise a certain sum from the sale to finance another project. At the same time, we didn't want to push the sales price out of the bracket in that area.
Sales were slow last year, although interest rates were low, and it took us just over a year to sell.
From the buyer's perspective, paying the agency directly means they are not paying the "frais de notaires" (which actually go to the state for the most part, not the notary) on the full amount of the transaction. Win-win.

"Les frais d’agence sont-ils forcément à la charge du vendeur?
Par Valérie Valin-Stein

QUESTION-RÉPONSE - Lorsque vous faites appel à un agent immobilier pour vendre, vous lui versez naturellement une commission. Celle-ci est contractuellement à la charge du vendeur. Cependant, il est tout à fait possible de prévoir une répartition différente de cette dépense lors de la conclusion de la vente.

Vendre aux meilleures conditions
En pratique, le mandat signé avec l’agence immobilière précise que le vendeur doit s’acquitter de cette commission. En effet il décide de manière indépendante de mandater l’intermédiaire et de ce fait, engage sa responsabilité sur cette rémunération. C’est la raison pour laquelle cette commission est souvent répercutée sur le prix de vente du bien immobilier.
Le montant de cette dépense joue donc un rôle important dans le choix de l'intermédiaire. Lorsque vous choisissez l'agence à laquelle vous confiez votre bien, vous devez prendre en considération le montant de la commission et son impact. En effet, lorsqu’elle s'ajoute au prix demandé pour le bien immobilier cela peut le rendre moins attractif sur le marché!
La commission d’agence
La prestation d’un agent immobilier se situe généralement entre 6 et 8% du prix de vente lorsque vous passez par un acteur "traditionnel" (agence avec pignon sur rue, réseau professionnel…). Elle peut être inférieure (de 1 à 3%) si vous faites appel à une agence dite "low cost".
Au moment de la signature de l'avant-contrat le vendeur reporte généralement cette charge sur l'acheteur. Dès lors, il est important de distinguer le prix de vente de l’habitation du montant de la commission. En effet, cela permet à l'acheteur de limiter le paiement des droits fiscaux (droits d'enregistrement...) au prix de la vente et de ne pas y intégrer la commission. Ainsi, malgré l’engagement contractuel initial, c’est très souvent à l'acquéreur qu'incombe le paiement la commission. En pratique, rien n'interdit de prévoir un partage de la commission entre vendeur et acheteur."
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Old 24.11.2016, 23:28
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Re: swiss, investing in french real estate

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We negotiated with the agency from the outset, and told them the price we wanted "net vendeur". Although they tried for 6% initially, we told them it would be 5% as we wanted the buyer to foot the bill (to avoid capital gains tax) but that we also needed to raise a certain sum from the sale to finance another project. At the same time, we didn't want to push the sales price out of the bracket in that area.
Sales were slow last year, although interest rates were low, and it took us just over a year to sell.
From the buyer's perspective, paying the agency directly means they are not paying the "frais de notaires" (which actually go to the state for the most part, not the notary) on the full amount of the transaction. Win-win.

"Les frais d’agence sont-ils forcément à la charge du vendeur?
Par Valérie Valin-Stein

QUESTION-RÉPONSE - Lorsque vous faites appel à un agent immobilier pour vendre, vous lui versez naturellement une commission. Celle-ci est contractuellement à la charge du vendeur. Cependant, il est tout à fait possible de prévoir une répartition différente de cette dépense lors de la conclusion de la vente.

Vendre aux meilleures conditions
En pratique, le mandat signé avec l’agence immobilière précise que le vendeur doit s’acquitter de cette commission. En effet il décide de manière indépendante de mandater l’intermédiaire et de ce fait, engage sa responsabilité sur cette rémunération. C’est la raison pour laquelle cette commission est souvent répercutée sur le prix de vente du bien immobilier.
Le montant de cette dépense joue donc un rôle important dans le choix de l'intermédiaire. Lorsque vous choisissez l'agence à laquelle vous confiez votre bien, vous devez prendre en considération le montant de la commission et son impact. En effet, lorsqu’elle s'ajoute au prix demandé pour le bien immobilier cela peut le rendre moins attractif sur le marché!
La commission d’agence
La prestation d’un agent immobilier se situe généralement entre 6 et 8% du prix de vente lorsque vous passez par un acteur "traditionnel" (agence avec pignon sur rue, réseau professionnel…). Elle peut être inférieure (de 1 à 3%) si vous faites appel à une agence dite "low cost".
Au moment de la signature de l'avant-contrat le vendeur reporte généralement cette charge sur l'acheteur. Dès lors, il est important de distinguer le prix de vente de l’habitation du montant de la commission. En effet, cela permet à l'acheteur de limiter le paiement des droits fiscaux (droits d'enregistrement...) au prix de la vente et de ne pas y intégrer la commission. Ainsi, malgré l’engagement contractuel initial, c’est très souvent à l'acquéreur qu'incombe le paiement la commission. En pratique, rien n'interdit de prévoir un partage de la commission entre vendeur et acheteur."
Haha, you have contradicted what you wrote earlier, perhaps you thought writing in French would help you

'QUESTION-RÉPONSE - Lorsque vous faites appel à un agent immobilier pour vendre, vous lui versez naturellement une commission. Celle-ci est contractuellement à la charge du vendeur. Cependant, il est tout à fait possible de prévoir une répartition différente de cette dépense lors de la conclusion de la vente'

Roughly translated Question - Answer - When you use a real estate agent to sell, you naturally pay him a commission. This is contractually the responsibility of the seller. However, it is quite possible to provide for a different distribution of this expenditure when the sale is concluded

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Wrong. We're just selling a flat in France and it's the buyers who pay the agency. 5% agency fee, not 10%.
Sometimes it's better to say nothing
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