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View Poll Results: Have you got a business are interested in how to do things here or save (avoid) tax?
Would like to have a business but boy don't know where to start 163 39.76%
Am a contractor but my pimps are asking me to bend over and hold my ankles every month 27 6.59%
I am a freelancer doing it myself (so to speak) and want to know more 110 26.83%
I have my own legally structured company and don't like paying so much to everybody 51 12.44%
I am employed but am always interested in any way to reduce tax 52 12.68%
I think this is a waste of breath you oxygen thief 7 1.71%
Voters: 410. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 19.10.2007, 21:39
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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I really don't know where to write this but I left my business back in my none-EU home and working on my MBA in Lausanne. Even though the MBA is demanding but the fact that I'm not working is driving me off the wall, I've gotten so used to working...to voulanteer is great but I'm thinking in the lines of Free Lance as my Student permit hasn't come through yet.
You need your permit to come through first, then you can work 20 hours a week. I don't know if you can work as a freelancer/independent.
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  #82  
Old 22.10.2007, 01:05
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Thanks Mica. Does that mean then that the 2nd pillar won't be taxed at all (except of course the crazily minimal amount of interest earned since inception)?
The 2nd pillar is tax-exempted (deferred) for the duration in which the assets are blocked in the pillar, also you can substract any payments you make into the 2nd pillar (in the admissible amounts) from your taxable income. Essentially, the tax man only comes knocking once you've become pensioned, and begin receiving you pension. Then your monthly pension will be viewed as "normal income" and now becomes taxed as income. Different rules apply if you opt for the 2nd pillar to be paid out as capital and not as a pension.

The whole idea behind pillar 2 and pillar 3a lies on deferring taxes until after retirement, thereby making it more attractive for employees to put away money during the term of their employment, in which they have a high taxable income, and have it taxed when they presumably will have a lower taxable income, i.e. when they are receiving their pension. The effect being that the tax burden will be lower alltogether. However, since taxes are only deferred, the taxman will get you in the end.

I have no experience on how the tax authorities will view pulling out money from the 2nd pillar to fund one's self-employment, but I'd gather it would be similar to the case in which one finances a home by using part of the 2 pillar assets. In such a case, the money pulled out of the 2nd pillar is viewed as income and taxed accordingly.
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  #83  
Old 24.10.2007, 21:30
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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...They then read about company expenses. They found out on a great forum that you can have 5% of your salary paid out tax free in representation expenses, just like that! They also discovered that there is a little VAT trick that nets them just over 1% for doing nothing, yippee!!...
1. Can someone point me in the direction where I can read more about claiming back 5% of your salary in representation expenses? I could only find a thread regarding IT contract rates when I searched for "representation expenses".

2. Richard - hope you are felling better and are on top of things work wise. I'm really looking forward to learning more about the VAT trick... [insert joke about magicians and rabbits here].

3. Silly question regarding the locked bank account: What happens to the 10K in the locked account if you ever have to wind your company up? Is it used for legal expenses etc similar to when you opened the company? I guess what I am really asking is - how does the locked bank account differ to a regular company bank account?

Once again, a big thank you for such a useful thread.

Charday
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  #84  
Old 24.10.2007, 21:42
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

For those of you looking to setup a business in canton Vaud, the following website may be of some help: http://www.dews.ch/

Their aim is to promote business development in Vaud. Their services are free of charge as they are funded by the canton.

Charday
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  #85  
Old 05.11.2007, 21:03
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

Hello,

I am a US contractor going to Geneva to work under an L permit for 6 months in 2008 through an umbrella employment agency. This is my first time working in Switzerland. I have been provided with a draft salary calculation and can understand the rationale for all withdrawels to my pay except "Pension fund contribution" An initial attempt to clarify with the agency resulted in more confusion(e.g being able to make contributions for all the years that I missed !? - yeah sure ) Can anyone give me a simple rationale as to why I would be required to pay into this as a US citizen not looking to draw a swiss "pension" at any time in my future. Can the payments that I make into this be recovered by me when I return to the US or is it "locked and lost" in the Swiss system. Thanks for helping to fill in the gaps in my knowledge.
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  #86  
Old 21.11.2007, 09:43
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hello Everyone,

Just wanted to chip in to say thanks to everyone who has been contributing to this thread. Extremely informative and incredibly generous of you to spend so much time helping us all out!

I am also hoping to start a small business in the Lac Leman area and was wondering first of all if I would need to be living in Switzerland to do so, or if I can remain based just over the border in France? (My wife works in Geneva on a 'G' permit) Even if this is possible, is it likely to create serious complications regarding tax, bank account, working permit etc?

Hope this is relevant to the thread.

Thanks again
Well its been a long time but I guess I should do some contributing again... so many questions left unanswered...

If you want an answer you need to state your citizenship. But generally if you are hoping to form an SA/SArl you do not need to live here but you do need to be an EU citizen if you do not live here. If you then wanted to work for the business you created then you would need a permit to do so. You would also have the great fun of dealing with G permit taxation and social contributions... Are these serious complications? In the scale of doing things in Switzerland they are mere hurdles to be jumped over...
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  #87  
Old 21.11.2007, 09:46
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Am I right if I add a small caveat note - the side income will be lumped to "employment income" when the tax rate is determined. You want to make sure that the side income is actually worth it...
Are you ever wrong! Yes side income is lumped together with "normal" income, but the tax rate is determined by the bottom line and you can deduct your side income away (sometimes).
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  #88  
Old 21.11.2007, 09:50
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hi, thanks for the great help that is provided on here by very kind people> my question may have been answered before, but I can't find it. So here goes.
I am a British citizen
My partner is an Italian citizen.
We now work and reside in Italy.
We have now found a house near Lugano.
We want to move there and need to register as residents.
My partner will continue to work in Italy and commute.
I want to consult in training on a freelance basis in lugano.
My question is what permits do I need?. I went to the office in mendrisio. they said fill in a form and prove that you have the means.
After reading this forum I'm now confused as to all these L B and whatever job permits. Do i need one? I don't have just one employer to apply for me.The company that offered me some trainig work on a free lance basis says they need a permit from the swiss authorities.
Any help you could give me will be appreciated. Also Should I start a company for tax reasons.
Thanks in advance.
Donna
The permits will be needed for sure and by both of you. The point is that they are combined residence and work permits (the work part being a rubber stamp). So simply by living here you need to apply and get one. And then you will be entitled to work.

Starting a company for tax reasons. Rather simple question with no possible answer. You need to have a good idea of your income and what benefits you will have through company formation before answering that question.
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  #89  
Old 21.11.2007, 10:05
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hi Richard (Fountain of Knowledge)

Thanks for all the great advice in not only this thread, but also for your general advice/assistance throughout the forum.

I would appreciate it tremendously if you would offer me some advice regarding 2nd pillar withdrawals. My understanding is that you can withdraw your 2nd pillar either if you leave Switzerland (only to non-EU/EFTA countries though, but that's not the point) or if you become self-employed. Upon withdrawal, is this amount subject to withholding tax? If not, then great! However I assume that it will be, so therefore present the following scenario:

Withdrawal of 100'000; 35% withholding tax of 35'000 retained, so 65'000 working capital to play with. Now ... I 'manage' to make a loss of 50'000 during the tax year, so my income for the year is reduced to 50'000 (100'000 2nd pillar as income less the 50'000 loss). Say my tax rate is 15% (for argument's sake). My total liability to Mr Tax for the year is therefore 7'500. He's already received 35'000 from me, so does that therefore mean that he will (probably only in a few years though ) refund me 27'500?

Another question. If I withdraw my 2nd pillar and plough it into self-employment, my current 2nd pillar balance will be zero. Am I then entitled to top it up during the ensuing years (tax-efficiently, obviously) to what it would/should have been had I remained an employee? Say it should have been worth 200'000, am I allowed to put 200'000 into a 2nd pillar (vesting?) account immediately, however subject to a maximum amount allowed to be tax deductible? Is there a limit?

Sorry if my questions are vague/difficult to understand, but if you need any further info. I'd be more than happy to 'attempt' to explain it better.

Thanks in advance,
Jeff
No I don't think your questions are vague and they do deserve an answer I just don't know if here is the right place as this is under taxation... So go ask again somewhere different! Dare I say you are sub-optimally informed, but I can put that right...
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  #90  
Old 21.11.2007, 10:18
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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1. Can someone point me in the direction where I can read more about claiming back 5% of your salary in representation expenses? I could only find a thread regarding IT contract rates when I searched for "representation expenses".

2. Richard - hope you are felling better and are on top of things work wise. I'm really looking forward to learning more about the VAT trick... [insert joke about magicians and rabbits here].

3. Silly question regarding the locked bank account: What happens to the 10K in the locked account if you ever have to wind your company up? Is it used for legal expenses etc similar to when you opened the company? I guess what I am really asking is - how does the locked bank account differ to a regular company bank account?

Once again, a big thank you for such a useful thread.

Charday
Seeing as you have structured your questions nicely...
1. The 5% is an additional amount of money you can earn tax free ie a benefit for forming a company. It is not something you can claim back.
2. Yes I need to stop travelling around the world and find some time to write things - working too much at the moment.
3. Depends. The money is placed in the locked bank account until such times as your company is publicly formed. A company formally comes into existence once the statutes are written and not once the company is registered. It exists in a legal state called pre-GmBH at least in the German part of Switzerland. It can indeed trade in this state and fully function but it cannot have a VAT number unless this is a company state transfer ie from sole trader to GmbH or SA etc. The money in the locked account is part of the requirement to form a Gmbh/SArl/SA/AG. Once the company is formed the money is paid out of the locked account into the current account of the company and is therefore a liquid asset. If the company is wound up then:
1. If the money is still in the locked account ie company was never formally formed then it is paid back into the company current account and if that never existed from whence it came.
2. It the money has been paid into the current account then it forms part of the liquidated assets and if there is residue is paid to the beneficiaries/creditors.
The locked bank account is simply a formally closed account ie the person owning the assets does not control them as in the case of a frozen bank account - although the outcome might be different

Last edited by Richard; 21.11.2007 at 14:34.
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  #91  
Old 21.11.2007, 10:26
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hello,

I am a US contractor going to Geneva to work under an L permit for 6 months in 2008 through an umbrella employment agency. This is my first time working in Switzerland. I have been provided with a draft salary calculation and can understand the rationale for all withdrawels to my pay except "Pension fund contribution" An initial attempt to clarify with the agency resulted in more confusion(e.g being able to make contributions for all the years that I missed !? - yeah sure ) Can anyone give me a simple rationale as to why I would be required to pay into this as a US citizen not looking to draw a swiss "pension" at any time in my future. Can the payments that I make into this be recovered by me when I return to the US or is it "locked and lost" in the Swiss system. Thanks for helping to fill in the gaps in my knowledge.
The simple reason is that all people over 25 must pay contributions (free of tax I might add) into a pension fund. This money is then locked in the Swiss System unless you leave to a country outside the EU in which case it is paid out minus a percentage for tax.
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  #92  
Old 21.11.2007, 10:50
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

I have looking into setting up an AG and GmbH, but the deductions seam to kill of that idea and I am currently negociating with the company to see whether they will pay me more salary to negate the employer social cost and help with the start up costs of an AG or GmbH. Presently I am on an L permit and here with my partner. I have found a new job with a German company and they are going to pay me gross and I can sort out my own tax here in CH. I am technically not allowed to work in CH as I am ohne Erwerbstaetigkeit, (Not able to work here) and all of my work activities will be outside of CH.
However I am resident here and a taxpayer. Is there anyway that I can contribute on a voluntary basis into the social system here! If not do they have such things as independent pension schemes.

I am earning CHF >120K and have no pension provision at the moment. I am just looking at options at the moment and perhaps it is better not to be part of the social system here, get paid a greater salary and invest the difference elsewhere.

Comments and thoughts welcome.
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  #93  
Old 21.11.2007, 10:58
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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I have looking into setting up an AG and GmbH, but the deductions seam to kill of that idea and I am currently negociating with the company to see whether they will pay me more salary to negate the employer social cost and help with the start up costs of an AG or GmbH. Presently I am on an L permit and here with my partner. I have found a new job with a German company and they are going to pay me gross and I can sort out my own tax here in CH. I am technically not allowed to work in CH as I am ohne Erwerbstaetigkeit, (Not able to work here) and all of my work activities will be outside of CH.
However I am resident here and a taxpayer. Is there anyway that I can contribute on a voluntary basis into the social system here! If not do they have such things as independent pension schemes.

I am earning CHF >120K and have no pension provision at the moment. I am just looking at options at the moment and perhaps it is better not to be part of the social system here, get paid a greater salary and invest the difference elsewhere.

Comments and thoughts welcome.
Hi, you paint only half a picture but I guess you want a full answer to PM me.

Richard
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  #94  
Old 21.11.2007, 11:41
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Are you ever wrong!
Well, I do get a side income which i cannot expense against in any way shape or form... but as the French say, "quand on aime, on ne compte pas"
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  #95  
Old 21.11.2007, 12:39
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Well, I do get a side income which i cannot expense against in any way shape or form... but as the French say, "quand on aime, on ne compte pas"
And as Yorkshire people say "if I can count it I like it"
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  #96  
Old 21.11.2007, 16:13
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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The simple reason is that all people over 25 must pay contributions (free of tax I might add) into a pension fund. This money is then locked in the Swiss System unless you leave to a country outside the EU in which case it is paid out minus a percentage for tax.

Hi Richard, nice to have you back.

This contribution you refer is it the LLP? I assumed this could never be reimbursed (even if one left to a non-EU country).

My understanding is there was an optional contribution into LLP2 which could be reimbursed (minus tax which is a low %). The reimbursment would take place when one left Switzerland even if it was to a EU country . This LLP2 would serve to lower your monthly tax rate.

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks
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Old 21.11.2007, 21:41
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

Hello. Thank you all for all this great information. However, I am a bit overwhelmed. I think I need some more basic info. I am a tech-writer and I want to start freelancing. I haven't gotten any contracts yet, however, I think I may have one soon. Do I have to have a company before I find work? Or is my case one of the "soletrader" that Richard wrote about in thread #15?
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  #98  
Old 21.11.2007, 22:37
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

Richard why do we have to fillout the us tax forum when in swiss? and i know the swiss govt. will give us back 90% for are taxs if make more thin 200000. just a QQQQ dekrim
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  #99  
Old 25.11.2007, 20:41
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hi Richard, nice to have you back.

This contribution you refer is it the LLP? I assumed this could never be reimbursed (even if one left to a non-EU country).

My understanding is there was an optional contribution into LLP2 which could be reimbursed (minus tax which is a low %). The reimbursment would take place when one left Switzerland even if it was to a EU country . This LLP2 would serve to lower your monthly tax rate.

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks
Actually no not quite, but nice that you mention this, even though I assume you got it wrong. I assume you are referring to LPP ( La loi fédérale sur la prévoyance professionnelle) for those who do not know is the alternative short form of BVG but in French. Italian uses also LPP but I have no idea what it is short for, sorry about that!

Anyway you can take your 2nd pillar contributions with you in full if you leave for a non-EU country. I am not sure what LPP2 stands for but this is commonly referred to as Kaderversicherung, überobligatorische Versicherung or assurances de cadres. I am not sure how detailed I want to describe this so I will use an example with incorrect figure...

Lets say you earn CHF 100K.
20K is insured through your AHV contributions.
the next 60K is insured by your BVG contributions.
there is 20K not insured...
To cover this hole most if not all companies provide an additional cover for the part above the obligatory cover. This is then the LPP2 part. You are correct when you say this can be taken with you in cash when you leave Switzerland. Whether the tax is a low percent is another matter though. Suffice to say it will be lower than normal but if the sum is large then rest assured this will not be small beans...

Whether this has anything to do with tax efficiency is questionable - although yes it will lower your taxable income as you are contributing some of your salary tax free into it thus reducing your liquid income. The true voluntary tax efficiency part is however the 3rd pillar...
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Old 25.11.2007, 20:47
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Re: Help for Businesses/Freelancers in CH

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Hello. Thank you all for all this great information. However, I am a bit overwhelmed. I think I need some more basic info. I am a tech-writer and I want to start freelancing. I haven't gotten any contracts yet, however, I think I may have one soon. Do I have to have a company before I find work? Or is my case one of the "soletrader" that Richard wrote about in thread #15?
In your circumstances you can choose to form your own company or work as a sole trader. Note if the latter you will need to register with the AHV as self employed...
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