Off-leash dogs that attack - Page 6

Custodian · #**101** 10.01.2011, 12:45

	Quote:	PlantHead
	These threads go like this. 1. Someone complains about a dog 2. Owners say other owner is bad and should have controlled their dog 3. At some point a dog hater jumps in and says something retarded like, ALL DOGS MUST BE ON A LEAD ALL THE TIME. 4. Then someone will tell a story about their child having a bad experience with a dog. 5. Then suddenly animal cruelty is ok and justified by saying "But I had a dog once, therefore I know what I am talking about" and people feel completely justified in saying, "IF I SEE A DOG I WILL KICK IT" 6. People respond saying children are as annoying as dogs because actually it isn't ok to kick a dog. 7. Then it turns into a train wreck if it hasn't done so already. Nils, I think your point of view is wrong. You will never understand that your point of view can be wrong, so lets leave it there. I believe that there is no point owning a dog unless it can be let off the lead....not everywhere, not all the time and you always need to be careful around children. However that is what I enjoy about my dog, long walks with him bumbling around doing his own thing, throwing the ball/ stick, watching him swim etc. etc. etc. If that annoys you, then frankly bad luck. If you are out walking/running etc and a dog wanders past you not on a lead and you jump 6 feet in the air out of fear, then you need to address your issues with animals, not complain at the owner or take it out on the dog....this is your problem deal with it. The world is too fluffy as it is. If my dog wanders up to you I will call him away, otherwise he will likely ignore you because frankly most people aren't that interesting. If you ask to stroke him I will let you...always ask before stroking a dog. If you are walking a dog on a lead and you tell me your dog is aggressive towards other dogs, I will put mine on a lead. If you don't tell me I will just let mine carry on wandering around, he may say hello to your dog, this is what dogs do. This is a good thing, a social dog is a happy dog. If your dog reacts aggressively try letting him off the lead, or just simply walk off the path with him, that makes it pretty clear. Do not pick your dog up, this will result in the other dog jumping up and you will get angry. Children and dogs are the best combination in the world, there is no better combination. Get your kid used to dogs and animals as quickly and as early as you can. Do not have the child on his first school field trip who has never seen a cow before. Lets leave it there. EDIT: Also read what people actually write. Most of the people complaining in this thread haven't read the post they are complaining about. They wade in with their point of view, often aggressively without actually bothering to understand what someone else has written.

If you are out walking/running etc and a dog wanders past you not on a lead and you jump 6 feet in the air out of fear, then you need to address your issues with animals, not complain at the owner or take it out on the dog....this is your problem deal with it.

Well well well, someone deeply in love............. (with their dog).
Can I ask you a question, when you first picked up it's excrement (you sound as if you would never leave it where it lands) did it not take some real effort, even with a plastic bag?

Custodian · #**102** 10.01.2011, 12:52

	Quote:	Nil
	I grow up with dogs in our house all my life. Almost everyone in my family own a dog and I did too. We are just a family of dog lovers! I never been affraid of any dog my whole life. Even when I was living in Istanbul I never fear street dogs, they were just a bunch of love seekers. But last fall, I got scared for the very first time of a dog here in Switzerland. I was in the park, where dogs aren't allowed and my 2 years old was happilly running around when that big huge dog came running straight to her. I reacted enough fast to step between her and the dog and I screemed at him. He stop at my feet and try to jump on me, I kicked him in his stomach. His owner gave me loads of shit to do it. I was boiling! I gave her a pretty large piece of my mind! And some people around stepped in too and kicked the woman out of the park with her dog.

You kicked it & you did'nt get injured!
Consider yourself lucky!

meloncollie · #**103** 10.01.2011, 13:19

Oops - double posted.

meloncollie · #**104** 10.01.2011, 13:21

I am very concerned at some of the measures advocated on this thread.

You see, despite being a dog owner, I actually rather like children and people, too.

I don't want to see anyone - human or canine, animal, vegetable or mineral - getting hurt. I understand this is an emotional topic, but we all need to take a step back and understand that with a little common sense, respect, and tolerance on both sides of the fence we can all happily and safely enjoy the public spaces we share.

Please, everyone: For your children's safety, understand that violent confrontation is absolutely the wrong way to deal with a dog who frightens you. You will only escalate a situation. Instead, calm de-escalation is called for.

For your children's sake, teach them safety around dogs. Just like you teach them safety around traffic, around the house, on the playground. It's only common sense, a life skill every child needs to learn.

Just like learning not to bother people is a life skill every canine (and dog owner) needs to learn.

Toward that end, here are some very good brochures explaining basic safety, written for children. We adults could all benefit from a quick read-through as well.

From the American Kennel Club:
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/PBSAF2.pdf

Battersea Dogs and Cats Home, click on the title for pdf version:
http://www.battersea.org.uk/help_adv.../for_children/

And 'Tapsi, komm!' for children and 'Ich Habe Angst vor Hunde' for adults, from the Bvet, in German - again, click for the pdf version:
http://www.bvet.admin.ch/tsp/02222/0...x.html?lang=de

I will continue to train my dogs, I will continue to keep them from bothering you, I will continue to respect your rights to use public spaces alongside me. And I hope you will extend the same courtesy to me, respecting my rights to use those spaces safely alongside you.

Deal?

Dona nobis pacem.

#**105** 10.01.2011, 13:35

Thanks for this excellent post Meloncoliie. Longbyt, a very good point made. Of course I never meant to say this Forum does not have very knowledgeable experts, and like you I am very grateful for them. Just that you don't have to be an expert to exchange ideas or even opinions.

Perhaps there is an expert out there who can explain much better than me, why screaming and kicking a boisterous dog is a very dangerous thing to do- and point to better alternatives. Thanks.

Nil · #**106** 10.01.2011, 14:07

	Quote:	Custodian
	You kicked it & you did'nt get injured! Consider yourself lucky!

	Quote:
	Perhaps there is an expert out there who can explain much better than me, why screaming and kicking a boisterous dog is a very dangerous thing to do- and point to better alternatives. Thanks.

No I didn't get injured. I didn't hurt the dog, I hit him on his chest with my knee while telling NO with a deep voice and that made him stop his jump half way and he changed his mind and left.

And I would prefer to get injured than letting a dog injured my daughter. Let's say that poor dog has a very stupid owner. A dog owner should teach his dog to not jump at any time on people nor running toward them.

I feel sorry for those who are really scared of dogs and have people telling them that it isn't the dogs owner's problem and they just have to deal with it.

Hedgehog of death · #**107** 10.01.2011, 14:07

	Quote:
	Thanks for this excellent post Meloncoliie. Longbyt, a very good point made. Of course I never meant to say this Forum does not have very knowledgeable experts, and like you I am very grateful for them. Just that you don't have to be an expert to exchange ideas or even opinions. Perhaps there is an expert out there who can explain much better than me, why screaming and kicking a boisterous dog is a very dangerous thing to do- and point to better alternatives. Thanks.

Meloncollie will answer this in a minute but ...
Dogs are very perceptive animals to body language - hence the reason why they are attracted to people who don't like dogs . Human's dislike of anything is seen as being submissive.

The answer is to be dominant , so they back down. Make them sit, turn your back on them, ignore them ... it puts them in a lower place in the pack

If you scream , yell and hurt an animal, then it does the same back. It's straight primal fight or flight reaction TBH. It doesn't matter if it is a fully grown adult or a 3 year old.

But over to MC

summerrain · #**108** 10.01.2011, 14:29

	Quote:
	Perhaps there is an expert out there who can explain much better than me, why screaming and kicking a boisterous dog is a very dangerous thing to do- and point to better alternatives. Thanks.

I am no expert. But I'll give it a go. At the risk of sounding all new age-y and fluffy, dogs respond to something we call energy. The energy that is projected by us, humans.

Take for example you wanting to take your dog out for a walk. Why do some dogs get all hyper and excited even when they've yet to step out of the door? Simply because the human asks in a rather happy voice "wanna go for a walk??" - instead of picking the leash up quietly, and calling the dog to you with a simple "komm". The dogs dont understand what you're saying. They simply pick up the energy you project through the tone of your voice, and actions.

Same applies for a boisterous dog coming at you. Scream and kick, the dog will perceive your high pitched voice as play/excitement/vulnerability. Push the dog away, and they will come back for more. Dogs go through 3 stages - fight, flight then submission. Pushing them doesnt tell the dog anything else but to try again. Or even irate them more.

Remain calm, standing tall (shoulders up, chest out) and claiming your space (in front of your child, and direct eye contact with a firm "ACCCK" sends the message through better than screaming or kicking. My 2 rappens - but I can totally understand the moment of panic for most people, especially non dog owners when you see a dog charging at your child to remain properly calm.

meloncollie · #**109** 10.01.2011, 15:03

	Quote:	Hedgehog of death
	The answer is to be dominant , so they back down. Make them sit, turn your back on them, ignore them ... it puts them in a lower place in the pack

Actually, I don't subscribe to the dominance theory at all... quite the opposite.

But this point is spot-on:

	Quote:	Hedgehog of death
	If you scream , yell and hurt an animal, then it does the same back. It's straight primal fight or flight reaction TBH. It doesn't matter if it is a fully grown adult or a 3 year old.

An aggressive response only increases your chance of getting bitten. Common sense shows us that diffusing the situation is a far more effective way to keep everyone safe.

(Veering a bit OT for a moment...)

This is not the thread for such a discussion, but most respected behavioral scientists and behaviorists today have long rejected the dominance model as fundamentally flawed. Even David Mech, the biologist whose 1968 book "The Wolf: Ecology and Behavior of an Endangered Species" was used by many to try to validate the model, has repeatedly stated that research and understanding of wolf behavior has moved on in the ensuing 40 years, that we now know the studies of the relationships between captive wolves kept in artificial groups cannot be extrapolated to wild wolf family packs, and certainly do not apply to the behavior of domesticated dogs in relation to humans.. In fact, he has repeated asked the publisher of that book to stop printing it.

http://www.davemech.org/news.html

Unfortunately 'dominance' has become a cultural meme - and a meme tends to take on a life of it's own, regardless of the validity of the concept. It's a snappy soundbite, a concept that can be grasped in seconds. That the dominance model is used by a popular TV entertainer keeps it anchored in the public mind. CM on the telly is far more entertaining than reading through most dry behavioral science papers.

For those interested in further reading on the topic:

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/st...programmes.php
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/100MostSillyIntro.html
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

In a nutshell, dominance theory mis-diagnoses the animal's emotional and instinctive state, leading to the use of the wrong human response, often then escalating a behavior. Much of the bad behavior mislabeled as dominance actually stems from fear. Physical punishment of a fearful dog can push him over the edge - creating an aggressive dog. Bad behavior is still bad behavior and needs to be corrected through training - but there are far more effective ways to go about it.

But this is really a discussion for the Pets Corner.

An aggressive response to what is perceived as threatening dog behavior is wrong simply because in doing so you are more likely to create a situation in which a dog thinks there is no option other than biting. Remember, most of what might look like aggression is actually fear. It is far safer to de-escalate, to calm things down. See the safety pamphlets linked in my previous post for a better, SAFER FOR THE HUMAN course of action.

I think Bill Hardie posted this exact point many many pages ago.

It's all about common sense, and keeping everyone safe.
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