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  #61  
Old 24.12.2010, 00:19
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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I don't know which type he meant, but where I come from winter tyres can be with or without studds/spikes... so what is basic sillyness to you, is totally natural to another
Sorry, i do not know about Swedish legislation, but here in Switzerland, having tyres with spikes in use with serious justification can result in serious penalties for culprits. What HE clearly spoke about was just winter tyres, and STANDARD winter tyres, and this is worldwide, do not have spikes. I mean, Pirelli, Michelin, Firestone and Goodyear are neither Swiss nor British nor Swedish companies. To repeat it, in case of ALL winter tyres worldwide, the standard version is without spikes. That members of the British Pasha Class are not allowed to talk with car mechanics really comes as a surprise to me
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Old 24.12.2010, 00:31
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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I actually feel for the airlines in these situations. Just as with the volcanic situation earlier in the year they are completely at the mercy of third parties - unfortunately as others have stated BAA's owners seem more interested in running shopping malls than providing efficient transport infrastructure - and should have their license taken away as a result. Back in the volcano situation the problem was mainly the typical European bureaucracy/committee decision making process.

Yes airlines have to provide hotels etc. but really they can't survive much more of this type of hassle. On the other hand passengers expect lower and lower fares such that, unlike in the past, flying economy these days is considerably less glamourous than taking the bus.

Swiss have many flights to London from Zurich for just CHF200 return which is quite astonishing really - especially compared with just a few years ago, and unlike some other operators includes luggage and drinks etc. When you think what anything else 'Swiss' costs this is amazingly cheap! As far as intercontinental travel is concerned - although, thanks to the strength of corporations operating in Switzerland, they are able to charge passengers originating in Zurich a fat fare they are marketed almost as a budget airline in the UK - offering very low priced economy and business class travel for passengers willing to fly across the pond/ to Asia via ZRH to keep the cabins full.

BA are often a bit more pricey on the London route but have some great groundstaff at Zurich. They were most helpful in rescheduling me into Heathrow when City was closed at the beginning of the month - at no extra charge and with no drama.
First of all, the matter in question basically was not a problem of "Swiss", but a problem of badly equipped airports. A serious problem quite obviously however was the thing with the contractors (handling agents, check-in agents) in charge. As there will be heaps of complaints and claims coming in, they at Swiss will be forced to check up the whole structure with those contractors. It is well possible that the managers of such contractors will point to insufficient instructions given by Swiss.

I personally was astonished by the failure of LHR to cope with far less than 20cms of snow within 3 days. I also was a bit surprised about Frankfurt am Main, an airport which did not convince. We had weather situations Frankfurt now had fairly often over the past few decades her in Zurich, but are used to seeing the airport getting things under control within 2 or 3 hours.
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Old 24.12.2010, 00:51
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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First of all, the matter in question basically was not a problem of "Swiss", but a problem of badly equipped airports.
No the matter in question in the original post was Swiss International Airline's handling (albeit via their sub-contractors) of the customer experience. My point boils down to the fact that ever-lower airfares are not compatible with customers receiving first class attention and that economy passengers these days tend to hold on to an outdated set of expectations from back in the days when airfares (in real terms) were 2 or 3 times what they are now. I accept that if I want to get myself, my laptop and 20 kg of luggage to London and back, and have a drink or two on board and pay only a couple of hundred francs then, after airport taxes and fuel etc. are paid for, the airline has little left available to employ top customer service reps to answer the phone instantly.

My other point is that the British airports are paying the price for a round of sub-contracting and bean-countering that has left the transport infrastructure with precious little leadership and where the sole priority of airport management seems to many 'customers' to be to extract every last penny from the passenger on the retail side. The end result of this is that whereas in the past I would happily transit via Heathrow to reach destinations (e.g. Phoenix) not directly served from the continent, I now choose to avoid the UK for transit flights.
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  #64  
Old 24.12.2010, 02:01
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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No the matter in question in the original post was Swiss International Airline's handling (albeit via their sub-contractors) of the customer experience. My point boils down to the fact that ever-lower airfares are not compatible with customers receiving first class attention and that economy passengers these days tend to hold on to an outdated set of expectations from back in the days when airfares (in real terms) were 2 or 3 times what they are now. I accept that if I want to get myself, my laptop and 20 kg of luggage to London and back, and have a drink or two on board and pay only a couple of hundred francs then, after airport taxes and fuel etc. are paid for, the airline has little left available to employ top customer service reps to answer the phone instantly.

My other point is that the British airports are paying the price for a round of sub-contracting and bean-countering that has left the transport infrastructure with precious little leadership and where the sole priority of airport management seems to many 'customers' to be to extract every last penny from the passenger on the retail side. The end result of this is that whereas in the past I would happily transit via Heathrow to reach destinations (e.g. Phoenix) not directly served from the continent, I now choose to avoid the UK for transit flights.
A) No, the analysis is WRONG. As the problems were the same or even worse in the 1960ies, when the aunt of a schoolfriend businesswise was on her way by air fairly often. The astronomic fares of those times did not help and so the famous joke here was "Breakfast in Zurich, Dinner in New York and your luggage in Rio de Janeiro (then still Capital of Brasil)". And the actual service provided was not better in reality, not at all.

You rather ought to realize that the nerves of the personnel in charge, in spite of all those "customer-care courses" may at times of distress start to crack. To be at the front, and not to have more real info than your customers is very tiring, and if you get the same question for the 69th time, which you simply cannot really answer may be too much.
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Old 24.12.2010, 02:18
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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A) No, the analysis is WRONG. As the problems were the same or even worse in the 1960ies, when the aunt of a schoolfriend businesswise was on her way by air fairly often. The astronomic fares of those times did not help and so the famous joke here was "Breakfast in Zurich, Dinner in New York and your luggage in Rio de Janeiro (then still Capital of Brasil)". And the actual service provided was not better in reality, not at all.

You rather ought to realize that the nerves of the personnel in charge, in spite of all those "customer-care courses" may at times of distress start to crack. To be at the front, and not to have more real info than your customers is very tiring, and if you get the same question for the 69th time, which you simply cannot really answer may be too much.
My point is that airlines do treat you differently, albeit not perfectly, if you are e.g. an 'elite' member of their membership rewards program. First class passengers have special telephone numbers which are manned by more responsive staff with greater decision making powers/access to a wider range of resources. I simply meant I am realistic enough not to expect an airline to provide me with a lot of help as a lowly economy passenger on a cheap bus to London.

I do think the airports/airlines could do a better job of integrating and prioritising their approach so that the vulnerable (e.g. those without any immediate means to return home for the night or find accommodation themselves) are handled in a more amiable and helpful way. In the meantime anyone setting off on a flight really needs a backup plan/ spare funds to meet these eventualities. There is probably room in the market for an external service provider to set up such assistance for an annual 'insurance' fee whereby e.g. a passenger is guaranteed accommodation and transport to it independently of what the airlines may or may not arrange.

I feel sorry for the OP's daughter getting caught up in this. I feel less sorry for people who whinge about Easyjet not paying for 3 nights accommodation after flight disruption when they only stumped up tuppence for the flight in the first place.
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Old 24.12.2010, 09:54
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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I feel sorry for the OP's daughter getting caught up in this. I feel less sorry for people who whinge about Easyjet not paying for 3 nights accommodation after flight disruption when they only stumped up tuppence for the flight in the first place.
Why? In reality those Easyjet and Ryanair passengers are mostly paying more or less the same as the Swiss passengers by the time you add in all the hidden fees. Why should our expectations be any different? Your expectation of care should be the same for all three.

Of course in reality I would certainly rather be travelling with Swiss when it all goes tits up! At least there you have a chance of being looked after.
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Old 24.12.2010, 10:31
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Why? In reality those Easyjet and Ryanair passengers are mostly paying more or less the same as the Swiss passengers by the time you add in all the hidden fees.
The terms and conditions of such cattle-wagons are very different to those of national carriers.

I travelled Easyjet once. It is an experience I will never repeat. I would rather walk. Seriously.
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Old 24.12.2010, 10:34
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Re: Swiss - the airline

Seasons greetings Swissbob, I'm eagerly awaiting the next chapter, "My 6 week travel hell adventure to Honolulu (via St. Louis) sitting next to John Candy". When we can we expect your blog on this very site?
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  #69  
Old 24.12.2010, 11:57
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Seasons greetings Swissbob, I'm eagerly awaiting the next chapter, "My 6 week travel hell adventure to Honolulu (via St. Louis) sitting next to John Candy". When we can we expect your blog on this very site?
I think John Candy would be a bit smelly by now .
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Old 24.12.2010, 12:12
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Re: Swiss - the airline

I'm flying Swiss later today, if it's anymore than 30 minutes late I'm going to miss my last train out of london. (I'd forgotten the stupid english trains shut down early on christmas eve)
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Old 24.12.2010, 12:31
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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I'm flying Swiss later today, if it's anymore than 30 minutes late I'm going to miss my last train out of london. (I'd forgotten the stupid english trains shut down early on christmas eve)
Last Xmas the other half had to work Boxing day and the rest of the week. So I decided to be a worthy son and take our children to the UK to see my mother. Metro and Eurostar in Paris - no problem. Tube across London - bit of hassle, but we managed it. Train from Paddingdon? None, except for the Heathrow Express. I didn't check beforehand, but presumed there'd be a Sunday or public holiday service. My big mistake. Luckily my sister was able to drive into London to pick us up (and before we froze, it was cold and there was nowhere to go - the few cafes/shops around were shutting up around 5 p.m.).

I generally enjoy train travel. Except in the UK. Good luck!
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Old 24.12.2010, 12:37
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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The terms and conditions of such cattle-wagons are very different to those of national carriers.

I travelled Easyjet once. It is an experience I will never repeat. I would rather walk. Seriously.
The budget airlines still have to abide by EU rules and regulations though, so it gets me annoyed when they whine about it being unfair (putting people up in temp accommodation, providing food/drink etc). Either they want to do business and so have to abide by the rules, or they don't want to abide by the rules and so should get out of the business (or lobby to get the rules changed).

I've flown Ryanair or Easyjet (can't remember which) a few times, and generally try to avoid them at all costs now (and so far have succeeded).
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Old 24.12.2010, 13:07
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Having worked in the airline business I can assure you that in cases like the present a majority of passengers will lose their rag. It's understandable, but very often the person on the other end of the phone or other side of the counter knows as much as the passenger. Sounds illogical and it is... Sometimes frequent flyers even know more than the people behind the counter. So, I know it is hard, but sometimes we also need to have some feelings for the poor people who are put on the front line (while their bosses are often conspicuously absent...).
Thanks for understanding the point I was trying to convey. There are humans on both sides of the call, but the ones who are paying money think they are buying slaves.
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Old 24.12.2010, 20:35
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Re: Swiss - the airline

Merry Xmas to you all, from one who will be in the office over the festive period. Who said working for an airline was all glamour :-)
Hope you all get to where you want to be.

Chris
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  #75  
Old 25.12.2010, 01:27
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Re: Swiss - the airline

Was stuck on my easyjet plane for about 2 hours today waiting for Basel airport to reopen
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Old 25.12.2010, 02:25
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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No the matter in question in the original post was Swiss International Airline's handling (albeit via their sub-contractors) of the customer experience. My point boils down to the fact that ever-lower airfares are not compatible with customers receiving first class attention and that economy passengers these days tend to hold on to an outdated set of expectations from back in the days when airfares (in real terms) were 2 or 3 times what they are now. I accept that if I want to get myself, my laptop and 20 kg of luggage to London and back, and have a drink or two on board and pay only a couple of hundred francs then, after airport taxes and fuel etc. are paid for, the airline has little left available to employ top customer service reps to answer the phone instantly.

My other point is that the British airports are paying the price for a round of sub-contracting and bean-countering that has left the transport infrastructure with precious little leadership and where the sole priority of airport management seems to many 'customers' to be to extract every last penny from the passenger on the retail side. The end result of this is that whereas in the past I would happily transit via Heathrow to reach destinations (e.g. Phoenix) not directly served from the continent, I now choose to avoid the UK for transit flights.
No, the sub-contracting is not the problem. In fact, at many airports, the sub-contractors do a clearly better job than than the monopolistic departments of the airport company did in the past. The airport management however has to set priorities and has to be ready to pay sufficiently for the services rendered.

No, you do not need "top service reps", but what is needed is that the personnel at the counters gets good and precise information, and also the chance to contact somebody in charge absolutely immediately. What also matters is the total organisation.

And third we come to co-operation. At ZRH you have Swiss, the Lufthansa owned airline, SRtechnics owned by Mubadala of Abu Dhabi, Swissport owned by Ferrovial of Spain and their competitor DNATA of Dubai. The former canteens are now low-price restaurants owned and operated by the British compass group, the "normal" restaurants are owned and operated by Autogrill of Italy. And the Duty-Free-Shops are owned and operated by a conglomerate from Milano/Italy. The airport company is owned by the Canton of Zurich, the cities of Zurich and Winterthur and many private shareowners. Police is Canton of Zurich (includes the passport control) while the customs authorities are a federal authority. ALL THESE organisations and companies co-operate remarkably well and the general service is now clearly better than in the monopolist past where Swissair dominated everything.
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Old 25.12.2010, 02:30
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Why? In reality those Easyjet and Ryanair passengers are mostly paying more or less the same as the Swiss passengers by the time you add in all the hidden fees. Why should our expectations be any different? Your expectation of care should be the same for all three.

Of course in reality I would certainly rather be travelling with Swiss when it all goes tits up! At least there you have a chance of being looked after.
Reminds me of Easyjet and Zurich. Easyjet served ZRH with two routes, but then suddenly demanded lower fees. ZRH-admin told them that everybody had to pay the same out of principle. And so Easyjet dropped ZRH out of their network. But a few years later, in March 2006, heavy snowfall forced the airports of Milano (LIN + MXP), Lyon, Geneva, Basel, Stuttgart and Munich (etc) to close. The only airport which managed to overcome was ZRH. So that Easyjet had to transfer thousands of passengers to the region here to LHR and to have them flown on British Airways and Swiss to Zurich, where the railways-system was fully operational. Easyjet returned to Zurich within a year
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Old 25.12.2010, 13:31
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Was stuck on my easyjet plane for about 2 hours today waiting for Basel airport to reopen
I am sure that some people who are still hanging around Heathrow after day 4 or 5 would have little sympathy... And to be honest, in today's travel era a two hour delay is hardly worth a mention.
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Old 25.12.2010, 14:28
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Re: Swiss - the airline

Swiss are one of the worst airlines i ever flew with, totally un professional and aggressive staff with no sense of professionalism at all.

Last time i flew with them all the way to singapore, the staff slept during all the flight, i had to wake up a cc to ask for water which is normally provided every hour on long hauls, the B**** was furious as if it's my mistake that i'm dehydrated , once i landed in singapore, first thing was writing official complain to Swiss and changing my flight back with Etihad and had a free upgrade to business when they knew how frustrated i am.....now this is what i call service.

Since that day i refuse to board on Swiss flights even if it's free.
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Old 25.12.2010, 15:08
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Re: Swiss - the airline

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Swiss are one of the worst airlines i ever flew with, totally un professional and aggressive staff with no sense of professionalism at all.

Last time i flew with them all the way to singapore, the staff slept during all the flight, i had to wake up a cc to ask for water which is normally provided every hour on long hauls, the B**** was furious as if it's my mistake that i'm dehydrated , once i landed in singapore, first thing was writing official complain to Swiss and changing my flight back with Etihad and had a free upgrade to business when they knew how frustrated i am.....now this is what i call service.

Since that day i refuse to board on Swiss flights even if it's free.
Sorry, I have flown Swiss long enough and often enough long haul to find your story unbelievable. There is no way that the CC were all asleep. They take it in turn to rests, so maybe you found one that was resting. CC have often told me that they get complaints walking through the plane with drinks while people are sleeping and so there are always drinks set up in the galley so that people who are awake can come and help themselves and stretch their legs at the same time (more than necessary when sitting in economy particularly). That has also been my experience. On the whole Swiss offer a decent consistent service. There are other airlines that can offer fantastic service sometimes and downright awful at other times (Cathay Pacific or Air Canada for example).

Last time I flew another airline long haul (Emirates) a CC member spilled his welcome drink tray over me. He apologized but then was quite happy to let me sit for 6 hours in my wet (and sticky) shirt. The Purser was too busy to come and speak to me...
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