A cousin of me for a few months had to act as judge in a "Bezirksgericht" of the Canton of Berne and found the job extremely challenging and tiring. What he told me about brought me to the conclusion that he did not believe in lengthy prison sentences but most of all in the simple point that the culprits had to face the court and had to face justice. Yes, he in a few cases was forced to be tough, not by anybody in particular but simply by existing laws.
The trick is not the length of the sentence - but how fast it can be brought on the perp.
In Germany and Switzerland, a lot of perps will be released immediately after being caught by police, awaiting their trial in freedom.
While this is OK for Mr and Mrs Bünzli awaiting their trial for speeding and continuing their jobs at the bank, it's not a good idea for handling the kind people we are discussing here.
It leads to the devaluation of justice in the eyes of those hard-core offenders.
US is quite good at this, AFAIK. You'll be in front of a judge in 24h usually.
The trick is not the length of the sentence - but how fast it can be brought on the perp.
In Germany and Switzerland, a lot of perps will be released immediately after being caught by police, awaiting their trial in freedom.
While this is OK for Mr and Mrs Bünzli awaiting their trial for speeding and continuing their jobs at the bank, it's not a good idea for handling the kind people we are discussing here.
It leads to the devaluation of justice in the eyes of those hard-core offenders.
US is quite good at this, AFAIK. You'll be in front of a judge in 24h usually.
While the problem of course is existing, you have to see TWO points :
A) CH justice prescribes that Mr Bünzli and Mr Gomes are treated equally
B) CH has the "Meldepflicht" which means that CH has a far heavier control on its residents than the USA. And do not forget that this Meldepflicht is standard in all of Continental Europe.
I in the USA in motels, even of chains, was surprised to see the gents in charge not being interested in passports etc at all. Payment done, keys handed over, all ok ! Unthinkable here in Continental Europe !
i live in ZRH and feel like i live in HB since im alawys shuffling between variouis office locations of my job all over the city from Oerlikon to Dübendorf to HB to Enge etc, and i have never once felt like someone was targetting me for theft pickpocketing or whatever at any station here. Im from the US and have lived in "transitional" neighborhoods in los angeles and have that crime sixth sense, and its never been activated here at all.
indeed, it seems unthinkable that such a thing would even occur here, as its forbidden.
not to sound like the arrogant zurcher here, but is this a Röstigraben thing? is there more of this in the french part?
old lady even got robbed here last saturday (81 years old) IN BULLE??????????
Switzerland is safe but you can feel the changes coming.......
Totally agree with you on that.
Whenever I am out and about alone or with others, I am always on the alert for potential street criminals just the same as if I were in London . Some of my friends here, particularly the Swiss ones, find it odd that I remain like this but after living in London for so long, this has been ingrained into me.
I don't care what anyone says about how safe Switzerland is, I am still amazed when I see guys walking around with their wallets bulging out in a back trouser pocket and ladies leaving their handbags unattended on shopping trolleys, in Rest Rooms and so on.
I never leave my handbag with friends when I go to the Rest Room when out, not even guys . This is not because I think they will pilfer from it but because I don't want them to have the responsibility of looking after it should some criminals be around and something goes down. Similarly, and for that reason alone, I never agree to take responsibility for theirs.
__________________ " The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible. " ~ Arthur C Clarke
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Not sure why it is always me who has to spoil the rants with facts, but anyway: There were 190.000 reports for thefts (not convictions, reports) excluding vehicles in CH in 2009 according to the Government.
If there really would be 133 cases on wallets in Geneva station each day, this would mean that more than 25% of all thefts in Switzerland would happen there... given that 50000 of the 190000 reports are on thefts after break-ins, it is actually more than a third of all petty thefts in the entire country... I know why I prefer Zurich
Geneva is were the magic happens, theft is sort of magic in a way....things just disappear before you know it....ain't it!!
On a serious note, after 5 years living in Geneva, i can definitely sense the difference in lack of security and increase of crime to a pretty high extent comparing to the actual security forces.
Geneva have major problem as they have approx. 1400 police personal recruited and only 300 of them are on patrol as others refuse to leave the admin work and go out of the street due to irregular hours and risks.
I think the solution is the Swiss government have to start thinking about police recruitment requirements as Swiss doesn't seem to fancy working in police forces, they should open it for foreigners too to cover the shortage.
Not sure why it is always me who has to spoil the rants with facts, but anyway: There were 190.000 reports for thefts (not convictions, reports) excluding vehicles in CH in 2009 according to the Government.
If there really would be 133 cases on wallets in Geneva station each day, this would mean that more than 25% of all thefts in Switzerland would happen there... given that 50000 of the 190000 reports are on thefts after break-ins, it is actually more than a third of all petty thefts in the entire country... I know why I prefer Zurich
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Silence is an argument carried out by other means.
On a serious note, after 5 years living in Geneva, i can definitely sense the difference in lack of security and increase of crime to a pretty high extent comparing to the actual security forces.
On a serious note:
- the only crimes that did indeed rise significantly over the past five years are the ones connected to driving.
- crime rates are stable, on a very low base. http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...n/gesetze.html
- I had the same discussion with my Swiss colleagues lately and every single one was of the opinion that "everything got worse" while the numbers clearly indicate the opposite.
I find it therefore far more interesting to wonder: Why do we feel less secure today than five years ago? Is it the media coverage? The big economic changes of the past years? SVP campaigns? I really don't know...
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On a serious note:
- the only crimes that did indeed rise significantly over the past five years are the ones connected to driving.
- crime rates are stable, on a very low base. http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...n/gesetze.html
- I had the same discussion with my Swiss colleagues lately and every single one was of the opinion that "everything got worse" while the numbers clearly indicate the opposite.
I find it therefore far more interesting to wonder: Why do we feel less secure today than five years ago? Is it the media coverage? The big economic changes of the past years? SVP campaigns? I really don't know...
As per the link you posted, these are convictions rates not actual crime rates, lots of crimes happen and either no one has been captured to be convicted, it was someone without legal documents so couldn't be convicted or had a good lawyer and got away with it.
I would be interested to see the actual crime rates where a crime did happen regardless of conviction or not, i think these figures will triple.
I would be interested to see the actual crime rates where a crime did happen regardless of conviction or not, i think these figures will triple.
The first link before listed all crimes together with the statistical chance of a case being solved. petty theft was indeed low - less than 20% while "serious crimes" had extremely high rates IMHO. So if we agree to ignore crimes that are not reported, the number is not that bad - and would of course develop parallel to the convictions unless the police got suddenly much less competent as before, so there is no massive increase either...
I know it is hard to believe but in reality it is really not that bad...
I blame the media and the interwebs, partially for being biased (drawing an overly sinister picture) and partially for providing easily accessible anecdotical evidence which leads people to overestimate the frequency of crimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic).
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However in Geneva, fines for this kind of offenses are based on the person's income - which means that a thief with very little official income would get away with very low fines.
If the guy is stealing 5-6 wallets per hour, I think his income should be pretty high, and therefore be receiving a expensive fine, no?
Just brought my calculator up. 400 in 3 days means 133 per day and this means only 5 to 6 per hour. And this is not too bad really . I don't know whether the situation in Zurich is better or worse but suspect that it is fairly comparable ! And what about the CCTV ? Criminals know about this techno-thing fairly well and have started to take that stuff well into their procedure.
5-6 per hour seems to me like Mexico City Metro stats. Not something for any place in switzerland.
just checked .... 222 reported a year for the Metro in 2008. so I would then say Geneva is Really bad
On a serious note:
- the only crimes that did indeed rise significantly over the past five years are the ones connected to driving.
- crime rates are stable, on a very low base. http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...n/gesetze.html
- I had the same discussion with my Swiss colleagues lately and every single one was of the opinion that "everything got worse" while the numbers clearly indicate the opposite.
I find it therefore far more interesting to wonder: Why do we feel less secure today than five years ago? Is it the media coverage? The big economic changes of the past years? SVP campaigns? I really don't know...
Statistics are about reported crime. That isn't the same as actual crime. Sometimes a rise in reported crime doesn't actually reflect that real crime has risen but that confidence in the police and accessibility of the police has risen and more people are reporting crime. For example, how many people would report the theft of a cheap wallet containing nothing but 150 Franks and a Migros Cumulus card if the police office was the other side of town and had impossible opening hours, versus there being a police office across the road that just happened to be open? In the 19 years I've been in Zürich I've seen several small neighbourhood police offics vanish and I' not aware of one new one that opened.
i live in ZRH and feel like i live in HB since im alawys shuffling between variouis office locations of my job all over the city from Oerlikon to Dübendorf to HB to Enge etc, and i have never once felt like someone was targetting me for theft pickpocketing or whatever at any station here. Im from the US and have lived in "transitional" neighborhoods in los angeles and have that crime sixth sense, and its never been activated here at all.
indeed, it seems unthinkable that such a thing would even occur here, as its forbidden.
not to sound like the arrogant zurcher here, but is this a Röstigraben thing? is there more of this in the french part?
The thread is about crime in Geneva. Many aggressive Africans speaking fluent French. Not a Zurich problem.
. Some of my friends here, particularly the Swiss ones, find it odd that I remain like this but after living in London for so long, this has been ingrained into me. 
. This is not because I think they will pilfer from it but because I don't want them to have the responsibility of looking after it should some criminals be around and something goes down. Similarly, and for that reason alone, I never agree to take responsibility for theirs.
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