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  #101  
Old 07.01.2011, 15:52
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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I'm wondering what constitutes reasonable grounds, as I was once searched on the street, outside of Franz Carl Weber, while out with my (then four month old) daughter. The police both searched my diaper bag and called the station to make sure a baby was registered at my address with the birthdate I had given for my daughter. They never told me if they thought I had stolen a toy or the baby...

I asked them if I was under arrest, they said no, and when I asked why they had stopped me, they refused to answer.
I don't know enough about Swiss law to answer this but I would have taken their names and control numbers. I would have written a letter asking for formal explanation of their actions and giving them 30 days to respond.
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  #102  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:00
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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I don't know enough about Swiss law to answer this but I would have taken their names and control numbers. I would have written a letter asking for formal explanation of their actions and giving them 30 days to respond.
Perhaps I'm a little naive, but I tend to cooperate, with as little fuss as possible, with people carrying guns. And cable ties.
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  #103  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:01
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

Honestly, I was a little too overwhelmed (by the baby and the situation) to think very clearly...it didn't occur to me until they'd let me go that they were perhaps confirming the birth date because they didn't believe my daughter was mine.

I know, it all sounds unbelievably stupid, but I was very sleep-deprived...
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  #104  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:06
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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Perhaps I'm a little naive, but I tend to cooperate, with as little fuss as possible, with people carrying guns. And cable ties.
Yeah, I'm American, so I tend to be pretty cooperative with the authorities. Also, I'd never had any bad experiences with police, so I didn't think they were being odd until it was all over.

Full disclosure: my older daughter, like my husband, is WAY more white than me. And grayish blue-eyed (I have dark dark brown eyes)...
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  #105  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:07
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

the mall cop has no legal justification to search you or demand to see in your bags. They are just like you or me - as pointed out earlier, common and civil law systems have a basis for the making of a citizens arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._legal_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_arrest

Now of course the store "empowers" the mall cop to act on their behalf and he may well make a citizens arrest if he feels he has enough evidence to do so (CCTV footage, observation, etc). But he cannot demand to search you in order to obtain that evidence - he would have to hold you for the police to do so.

There's then the aspect of "wrongful arrest" and suing the mall cop or the store. I don't think that happens much, though.

Now for practical reasons, it might be that you cooperate as this is the easiest option - especially if you're not a criminal.

I am an absolute bugger when shopping. I often pick things up and then have a change of mind and leave them somewhere else; I also use my pockets and bags to carry things in.

I've been stopped leaving stores and asked to look in my bags and I usually comply - but if I thought someone was taking the peace then I would have no qualms about objecting and recommending that they call the police if they want to check me out. I have been known to leave the store at that point and ..... guess what? Nothing happens.

Only take the belligerent route if I a) have time and b) am a bit miffed that I've been stopped.

Also, due to a past life or two, I can also spot store defectives from a mile off
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  #106  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:09
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

When leaving the home country to live somewhere "foreign", I think we expect that something should be different and it should be either too good or too bad. We become sensitive.

It's not easy to explain, but for the first months that i lived here i expected myself to be discriminated wherever I was. I didn't want to be discriminated, but it seemed like it's an unavoidable thing. Like when the loads of people get on the bus, it seems the driver has greeted everyone but me. The situation which I wouldn't really care about when I was back home.
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  #107  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:10
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

Not sure if this was directed at my case, but I wanted to clarify, in my case it was the real cops. Zürich police, two in blue uniforms, not anyone hired by Franz Carl Weber.

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the mall cop has no legal justification to search you or demand to see in your bags. They are just like you or me - as pointed out earlier, common and civil law systems have a basis for the making of a citizens arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._legal_systems
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_arrest

Now of course the store "empowers" the mall cop to act on their behalf and he may well make a citizens arrest if he feels he has enough evidence to do so (CCTV footage, observation, etc). But he cannot demand to search you in order to obtain that evidence - he would have to hold you for the police to do so.

There's then the aspect of "wrongful arrest" and suing the mall cop or the store. I don't think that happens much, though.

Now for practical reasons, it might be that you cooperate as this is the easiest option - especially if you're not a criminal.

I am an absolute bugger when shopping. I often pick things up and then have a change of mind and leave them somewhere else; I also use my pockets and bags to carry things in.

I've been stopped leaving stores and asked to look in my bags and I usually comply - but if I thought someone was taking the peace then I would have no qualms about objecting and recommending that they call the police if they want to check me out. I have been known to leave the store at that point and ..... guess what? Nothing happens.

Only take the belligerent route if I a) have time and b) am a bit miffed that I've been stopped.

Also, due to a past life or two, I can also spot store defectives from a mile off
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  #108  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:14
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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Not sure if this was directed at my case, but I wanted to clarify, in my case it was the real cops. Zürich police, two in blue uniforms, not anyone hired by Franz Carl Weber.
no, it was not directed at you
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  #109  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:38
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

I just would like to mention the legal bases for arrests made by private persons:


According to art. 218 of the Act on Criminal procedure a private person may make a provisional arrest if he cannot get help from the police in good time and if he catches a person in the act of committing a felony or a misdemeanor or if he meets the person immediately after the commission of such an act.


http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/312_0/a218.html
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  #110  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:43
economisto
 
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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I just would like to mention the legal bases for arrests made by private persons:


According to art. 218 of the Act on Criminal procedure a private person may make a provisional arrest if he cannot get help from the police in good time and if he catches a person in the act of committing a felony or a misdemeanor or if he meets the person immediately after the commission of such an act.


http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/312_0/a218.html
Yes of course, anyone can arrest anyone else, but unlawful detention/kidnap isn't pretty.
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  #111  
Old 07.01.2011, 16:53
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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Yes of course, anyone can arrest anyone else, but unlawful detention/kidnap isn't pretty.
don't forget that a citizens' arrest on a proper crim will usually not end nicely.

If you're fortunate enough to be in a bank when someone with a gun holds it up, you're hardly going to step in are you?

That's before you get into the "reasonable force" discussion....
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  #112  
Old 07.01.2011, 18:10
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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don't forget that a citizens' arrest on a proper crim will usually not end nicely.

If you're fortunate enough to be in a bank when someone with a gun holds it up, you're hardly going to step in are you?

That's before you get into the "reasonable force" discussion....
Yeah, reasonable force can be tricky ... one of my country relatives had to argue that in court once, since the person who'd broken into their home and threatened his wife with a carving knife ended up with several broken bones. Can't recall the judge's decision, but my cousin argued that he had a loaded shotgun, so smashing the guy in the shoulder, face and ribs with the butt of the weapon was showing restraint. I think my cousin came out with no conviction recorded, but the 'victim' was a serial offender who already had some assault convictions as well as a string of convictions for breaking an entering ... may have influenced the magistrate.
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  #113  
Old 07.01.2011, 18:40
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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These questions are much more complex than some simple watered down explanation you can get on the EF. Is there anybody here with proper legal knowledge.
Happy to address the situation in Germany:
The shop security people have no more rights than the ordinary citizen. They can only search your bag if you agree to it. They can only hold you for the police if they have evidence that you were shoplifting (they saw you pocket something etc). Strolling the aisles for half an hour is no such evidence. They cannot force you to wait in an separate room until the police arrives (many teenage girls were subjected to rather intimate searches by male employees...).
The terms posted at the entrance of the shop ("by entering you agree to have your bags searched...") have no legal value at all. Refusing to such a search doesn't entitle the shop owner to prevent you from entering his place in the future.
BTW, even if the police arrives you have to give your ID+address, but do not have to say a word re the accusation raised against you.
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  #114  
Old 07.01.2011, 18:47
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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Would you mind if we installed a CCTV in all the rooms of your home including the bedroom and the bathroom?

Sorry for the seemingly flippant remark, Nils and please don't take it personally. The point I am trying to make is I have plenty of things I might want to keep private to myself - medical history, commercial secrets, bank details, embarrassing tastes in music etc etc.

For example, you might have an embarrassing medical condition for which you keep the medication in your handbag and you don't really want some gimp in a shop to know your business.

Cheers,
Nick
Honey, this is why I said that ME I have nothing to hide! But if I walk with a dildo in my bag, I might be pretty defensive at showing what is in my bag.

My own perception of the situation is obviously different then someone else, who may have a condition or a private document they want to keep secret.

My experience of bags checkup was an open the bag, person make a quick look into it without touching anything and me going on my way out. I have never been bring in the back store or got a pat down from a shop guardian.

I have never been asked by someone with a bad attitude either. So my own personal experience brings me to said what I said earlier.

And I stand firm on what I said about doing a big deal out of the situation by dragging it into a racist, unsafe country piece.
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  #115  
Old 07.01.2011, 18:56
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Re: Aweful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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OK, firstly shop "security" isn't allowed to restrain you. Secondly, you can't be "caught shoplifting" if you're still in the shop. I frequently put items in my pocket in Migros (I go in for a can of tuna, and realise a tuna salad would be great and so have two cans of tuna, a celery stick, dill and mayo and no basket). I proceed to empty my pockets at the checkout and no one seems to mind. You have to have passed the checkout and left the store premises to even be suspected of stealing, but unless you showed real intent, most courts would rule that it was a legitimate error.
You do know the shop supplies these at the entrance, for your convenience



I worked in a shop like Migros back home once, only the owner and store detectives ( yes they hired 2 to blend in with the folk..what a job, running around all, day shopping for stuff you put back the next round you walk in the store ) could stop someone if suspected from theft.

He told us that if someone was spotted stealing, only him or the store detective could chase him while he was on the property, so parking = property, was he or she on the street/sidewalk, then they couldn not lift a finger.

The could only ask the customer, did he or she steal something and stall them while talking untill the police came, however they could not keep a stealing customer in a seperate room ,that was a lawsuit waiting to happen we were told.


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Honey, this is why I said that ME I have nothing to hide! But if I walk with a dildo in my bag, I might be pretty defensive at showing what is in my bag.
and..do you?

You can always say its a banana protector..

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  #116  
Old 07.01.2011, 19:51
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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My own perception of the situation is obviously different then someone else, who may have a condition or a private document they want to keep secret.
When you're travelling on the night train from Amsterdam to Stockholm, and you've asked your travelling companion to secrete some "presents" for your Swedish hosts in his bag; when the customs officials ask to look inside, damn sure you (he) refuse(s) to open it. Fortunately he could wave his magic passport and claim he was carrying some diplomatic papers for his father, in a neighbouring country. Coming from 16yr. Finn, I somehow think we were very lucky to get away with it (me? ... manipulative? ... never; he knew exactly what he was doing). Grrrrreat party, though. If you look at a map, Stockholm is higher than Amsterdam -- well for one night only.

Last edited by TiMow; 07.01.2011 at 19:52. Reason: addition
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  #117  
Old 07.01.2011, 20:17
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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If you look at a map, Stockholm is higher than Amsterdam -- well for one night only.
Yep, in Stockholm, one big night between the 20th november and 10th march.
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  #118  
Old 08.01.2011, 11:24
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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he had a loaded shotgun, so smashing the guy in the shoulder, face and ribs with the butt of the weapon was showing restraint.
A great display of Darwin Award potential in your family.
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  #119  
Old 08.01.2011, 11:43
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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A great display of Darwin Award potential in your family.
He didn't cock it, and didn't have his finger on the trigger.
If you can't smash somebody with the butt of your rifle or shotgun without it going off, you shouldn't have one ...
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  #120  
Old 08.01.2011, 13:31
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Re: Awful experience in Interdiscount. Do they have the right to check my bag?

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If you can't smash somebody with the butt of your rifle or shotgun without it going off, you shouldn't have one ...
Is that one of the licencing conditions?
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