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  #61  
Old 09.01.2011, 11:38
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Agree. There's a feeling of "because I speak English, more English should be available to me" throughout this thread.
I don't really think so. I think it is more "I like films presented to me the way the authors intended" kind of sentiment. When I was doing translatology courses we had a bit on how to translate films so the vowels and consonants match, so the mouths get open at the same time people speak. It is not easy at all. I wish they didn't go through this expensive shebang now when the tradition was to let the flicks screen in original versions.

And, just for the record, I think the whole world should speak English, since it has become a part of modern literacy, anyways. Swiss really do, who are we kidding, anyways.
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  #62  
Old 09.01.2011, 11:43
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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I lived in Japan for a year and studied in China for a semester. Most people there watch English movies with subtitles, in fact those are the vast majority of movies, most folks don't watch dubbed movies, TV is similar. That was my first real experience abroad. So I felt this was normal. The Asians do this, I was told, to practice their English. Difference is, Asians tend to want to learn and speak English...unlike Italians, Swiss, French, etc. haha

However, here I was quite shocked that they dub almost everything.



My fiancee doesn't even know what a lot of movies stars like Samuel L. Jackson (with his very distinctive and funny voice) sound like; she was shocked by his accent and speech in a movie we just rented. [The Cleaner]. She didn't know certain actors were British either, because she never heard them speaking in English. Sometimes in a movie you can't tell the person is foreign, and it is important to the plot or just a part of the comedy (due to their accent). This does not come across when it is dubbed.

Anyway, that is my argument. I think dubbed movies are cheesy, and I would not pay to see a French or Chinese movie dubbed in English, forget it. If i want to watch bad acting, I can go back to America and watch some old Wu-Tang Hong Kong Kung-fu dubbed movies when the people keep speaking after the English stops.
> Swiss and also Italians WANT to learn and speak English. Only this explains why the English language courses all over the country are so packed

> another aspect is that the "dubbing-voices" usually are chosen on the criteria of having a voice similar to the "original". Look at Roger Moore. His German "voice" for Simon Templar was really exactly on the original, while the German "voice" for James Bond clearly was NOT.

> strange is when English films are dubbed in French. The French "voices" have to speak supersonic to match, and in cases continue to talk when the person on the screen has stopped talking

> BUT you have to see that for cinema owners the dubbed films coming from big German agencies are far cheaper than the sub-titled things from Swiss agencies, whose markets of course is restricted to Switzerland. The market for English films with German and French subtitles in Germany is almost ZERO ! And the cinema owners are NOT subsidized by the state (like Schauspielhaus + Tonhalle [Opera]) with millions but have to try to make some profit
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  #63  
Old 09.01.2011, 11:48
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Yes seems that only SF 1 & 2 give the option to watch in English.The rest have some inate fear of English. At least the others should offer the possibility to choose English. Thats what I call modern TV.
So sorry, but WHAT REST do you have in mind ? Please clarify ... thanks
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Old 09.01.2011, 11:59
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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...a vaild but arguable point. I believe that if you translate a movie it loses its context as wordings sometimes don't make any sense. For instance, when there is foul language involved..the words sometimes don't make any sense. Or take the movie "Black Snake Moan" which takes place in the southern part of the US...it is impossible to translate the southern drawl into German or any other language for that matter and therefore, the movie loses its artistic qualities.
Totally agree, there are some things you just can't represent in a good way when dubbing, like accents, but also jokes and some expressions. You notice this when going to a movie showing in original version and you are one of the few people laughing at some points (even more noticeable in an exotic language like a Scandinavian one, where you might be the only one in the audience laughing).

If there would be subtitles on TV as well, no one would think it was to cumbersome to read. You don't even notice you read them. It's a matter of growing up not knowing anything else. The only time I found it tough, was when I was 7-8 years old and didn't read fast enough to make it to the end, before the next text lines came along.

Whether the Swiss, or any other nationality, should or should not learn English, can be debated. One thing can be said, though. If you look at Europe, the ones who speak better English as a foreign language, are, in my opinion, the Scandiavians and the Dutch, people growing up with subtitles on TV....
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  #65  
Old 09.01.2011, 12:07
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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So sorry, but WHAT REST do you have in mind ? Please clarify ... thanks
Jokingly meaning the other TV channels
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:32
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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The point should be that to dub films done in another language inevitably robs the film of a certain part of it, and robs people understanding the "film language" to some extent of the chance to improve. Films should be shown in the original language also if this is Russian, Hindhi, Arabic, Greek of Spanish, in case of doubt with German, French and English subtitles.
I totally agree !
I'd rather watch a foreign movie with subs than dubbed...even though subtitles can become very distracting !
Like when I watched Avatar in 3D...those sharp, yellow subtitles were irritating !

You know wha'ts really weird ? Watching a Clint Eastwood Western in French !
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:40
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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It is en vogue, until you gota do some work and actually become fluent enough to watch films. So, trendy, yes very much so, but it is more little video games terms, some corny rap words, etc but to really cram to be good enough actually sit through the entire Harry Potter series or that whatsit vampire series...Twilight in English, I don't think so. Teens like their fun and unfortunately movie industry here is going to feed them the least painful way, it's not a language school, they are after their cash.
I disagree, Chick ! Most children in Europe learn English very early-on...it dominates the EU language curriculum !

By the time they're 17, their skills should be well developed enough to understand any commercial movie...the dialogues in Avatar or Batman aren't that complicated !
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Old 09.01.2011, 12:54
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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I disagree, Chick ! Most children in Europe learn English very early-on...it dominates the EU language curriculum !

By the time they're 17, their skills should be well developed enough to understand any commercial movie...the dialogues in Avatar or Batman aren't that complicated !
Their skills should be, but you know what? Teaching 17yr olds is what I do and most of the time the Yank slang in flicks puts them off. It shouldn't, of course not, but it is like in mags: trendy and very colloquial, so not so immediately understood. The dialogues might be simple but vocab usually ain't. Short and simple u-tube vids are ok, but 2hr movie is probably difficult. For Matura schools admission exams here, you don't even have to know present perfect, they do drill you on articles and other details, though, so you can imagine how useful for decoding slang Yank conversation that might be. EU might be dominated by Engl, CH curriculum will be, in 2012 as per HarmoS. CH while in Europe, has its own agenda. So, while there is this "they should..", they don't. They still do have a lot more positive attitude to languages here than elsewhere, and especially to Engl. They don't know yet, that I am going to make them switch their cells into Engl, their iphones, players, their school accounts, FB, hahaha...Might figure out some kind of competition with rewards, thinking about it.
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  #69  
Old 09.01.2011, 15:55
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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A couple of friends of mine here are always complaining that they need to get better at their English vocabulary but they never watch anything in English, they always choose to watch the German dubbed version. Well, that way, and without reading stuff in English, they'll never improve... [EMPHASIS MINE---eddiejc1]
Although I can sympathise with the OP, those people in Switzerland who miss seeing films in English might want to consider watching more films in German.


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It is en vogue, until you gota do some work and actually become fluent enough to watch films.

I think MusicChick may have it backwards. Instead of WAITING until you become perfectly fluent in D/F/I to go to the local non-English Swiss cinema, maybe people should consider going anyway---even if you can't understand everything and it is frustrating at times---in order to BECOME fluent.

Last edited by eddiejc1; 09.01.2011 at 16:00. Reason: Added quote from MusicChick and comment.
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Old 09.01.2011, 16:19
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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I think MusicChick may have it backwards. Instead of WAITING until you become perfectly fluent in D/F/I to go to the local non-English Swiss cinema, maybe people should consider going anyway---even if you can't understand everything and it is frustrating at times---in order to BECOME fluent.
In principle not a bad idea, but have you seen the ticket prices here? At CHF14-19 a whack that is some expensive frustration. If language lessons are your goal you'd be better off staying home and watching Swiss TV... equally incomprehensible/educational and it's free.
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Old 09.01.2011, 16:38
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Re: Cinema Insolence

Even DVDs are pricey.

No wonder movie houses cater to audience, since who is really going to pay so much for tix. For that price you can buy original version DVD, probably for cheaper if you buy abroad.

Although, here, we went in the sticks, there was apero before, in the middle and after, imagine that! Lovely local stuff apero, and cakes and canapes. Then some stiff discussion, very formal and bizare, people just spoke because they thought they should say something. The intermission is funky. It was a cute experience.
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  #72  
Old 09.01.2011, 17:10
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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hould or should not learn English, can be debated. One thing can be said, though. If you look at Europe, the ones who speak better English as a foreign language, are, in my opinion, the Scandiavians and the Dutch, people growing up with subtitles on TV....
Dutch and Scandinavian ? Heard that again for decades. But is it true ? The Dutch way to greet in English with "Ch'ud morning" and "Ch'ud afternoon" is not exactly my idea of good English and the Danish and Swedish accents in English neither are superb. That Norwegians tend to "celebrate" a superb English is true.

When attending the course for the "Cambridge Proficiency" we got a clear and definite advice issued by Cambridge University NOT to listen too much to "Benelux-erish English" (RTL etc) ! And I over many years had to make lots of phone-calls to Sweden, and their torturing the English language to me is NOT "better English" In case of Denmark I often started in English until the other side asked "Sprechen Sie eigentlich Deutsch ? " And indeed, the High German of many Danes is miles ahead of what you hear from many teachers here in Switzerland !
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:20
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Jokingly meaning the other TV channels
Exactly what I thought ! Do you realize that "the other TV channels are those of Germany and Austria ????
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:26
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Exactly what I thought ! Do you realize that "the other TV channels are those of Germany and Austria ????
Yes.But what difference does that make?
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:32
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Yes.But what difference does that make?
An important difference. Among the potential audience in Austria and Germany, less then 1,1% are interested in subtitled stuff and less than 0.01% in subtitles also in French . And the "Intendanten" of those TV channels have to care about the finances.
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Old 09.01.2011, 17:37
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Dutch and Scandinavian ? Heard that again for decades. But is it true ?
Good question. When one speak those languages, one notice how much they transfer their own grammar to English... put it works far better than transfering French or Italian grammar and expressions. The rules of present perfect, for example, are similar in scandinavian and English (but not exactly the same) so they will not make those mistakes any German, French, Hungarian or Russian will be recognized by immediately. That does not mean they talk the same English as English speakers though. They are just less bad comparatively. For pronounciation, the Dutch are a good example of illusion: One think they pronounce an English /r/ but they don't, they just do it like in a certain kind of Dutch (there are several accents in Dutch) and it is just close enough to the retroflex English or American /r/ to create the illusion. With vowels, it's even clearer: Dutch pronounce EN low like NL loo, no effort needed and if you don't know the dutch word loo, you just understand low and don't think of anything else. Same with Norwegian saying NO /u/ for EN /oo/ and nobody notice. But still... Norwegian and Swedes keep their tones when talking English. That would be the technical side of it. But frankly, I have never heard a Dane or a Dutch pronounce EN /sh/ GE /sch/ perfectly. But at what degree of subtlety does one want to analyse here...?

On the deeper side, one must ask oneself in what context one hear them speak English. On basic level, they sound far better than anyother accent. So for the same level of vocabulary, they will appear more fluent and with better command than a Spanish. But facing long complex texts, it depends more on the individual than on the nationality when it comes to the level of understanding skills. At nationwide level, one can though think of the common pool of Germanic words that makes it easier for the speakers of those languages to learn this part of the English vocabulary than it is for Slavic, Neolatin speakers or others.

English being a language that enriched its vocabulary with a huge amond of foreign words, lots of them being of latin/french origine, one finds this common pool of vocabulary in Dutch/Skandinavian too. But are we always sure that they know the false friends and the differences of conotation of words sounding alike? I am not sure. I know from the French that it is the main difficulty when learing English at a higher level: to rethink totally the semantic of loanwords in all its subtleties.

It is also a vertuous circle: if one think one is good in English, one will dare to speak and use it more freely and more frequently, displaying the whole range of one's language skills. That is in itself the right way to reinforce it, even if one is not as good as one thinks. Dutch and Skandinavians benefit from it, no doubt about it.
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  #77  
Old 09.01.2011, 17:44
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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know from the French that it is the main difficulty when learing English at a higher level: to rethink totally the semantic of loanwords in all its subtleties.
Yes. Like the ever so fashionable word relooking. Driving me mad. Why why why...It's not even a loan word. It's a strange bastard between loaned compositum and false friend.
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Old 09.01.2011, 18:29
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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The Dutch way to greet in English with "Ch'ud morning" and "Ch'ud afternoon" is not exactly my idea of good English
Before we get into some more accent slagging, the good old studies train me to think that proficiency is not measure only by accent, fluency, etc. It is also syntax, and mainly, how well are thoughts joined together (so it is not only and and and but but but so so so). My old syntax teacher (I hope she never reads this) drilled me that it is correct conjunctions that make the utterance coherent, how many that particular student can use, how accurately they express the nuances in relating thoughts together, etc. Maybe she was biased, but I like the way she loved conjunctions. So, I guess pragmatic bits of language and formal are important, les deux. Not just what we hear.
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Old 09.01.2011, 19:19
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Re: Cinema Insolence

Our local cinema usually shows films in VO. Personally I hate dubbed films and find sub-titles really distracting, partly because I am a linguist by 'trade'. But on the other hand, have to agree that there is no real reason why films should be shown in English in 'normal' cinemas here. Try and find out about ciné-clubs in your area, which are much more likely to show in VO, although they can't afford new films. However- they will show NON English films in VO too- be it Russian or Chinese.
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Old 09.01.2011, 19:45
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Re: Cinema Insolence

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Our local cinema usually shows films in VO. Personally I hate dubbed films and find sub-titles really distracting, partly because I am a linguist by 'trade'. But on the other hand, have to agree that there is no real reason why films should be shown in English in 'normal' cinemas here. Try and find out about ciné-clubs in your area, which are much more likely to show in VO, although they can't afford new films. However- they will show NON English films in VO too- be it Russian or Chinese.
in VO?Ahhh Voice Over??
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