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  #21  
Old 04.02.2011, 17:33
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Re: Swiss Air charging structure WTF!

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Our travel agency regularly does this for us... Buying two tickets, e.g. over weekends with fictive returns.
Well, your travel agent ought to be careful. If they're doing this in the full kinowledge that you're going to throw away the final coupons, then they're breaking ticketing guidelines. In this case, it's likely them, not you who will receive a chargeback.
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  #22  
Old 04.02.2011, 17:35
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Re: Swiss Air charging structure WTF!

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In this case, it's likely them, not you who will receive a chargeback.
Still I think there was a good question in this thread. Does anybody here know anybody that this has happened to?
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  #23  
Old 04.02.2011, 17:50
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure WTF!

The problem with charging you for a binned return flight is the fare conditions. If I buy an economy saver flight for the return leg, then there is no scope for changing the ticket and they can hardly ask me to pay the full fare for a flight I didn't take on a ticket that I couldn't change?

Confused

What it boils down to is, Swiss return with economy saver (cheaper than BA) and a BA one way if the return leg is ditched.
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  #24  
Old 04.02.2011, 17:50
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure WTF!

Be careful..."a friend" has had a Warning and threat of a ban for doing exactly this.
Suggest check in on line for the return then miss the flight...maybe even ask for a refund just to be on the safe side!
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  #25  
Old 04.02.2011, 18:08
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure WTF!

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The problem with charging you for a binned return flight is the fare conditions. If I buy an economy saver flight for the return leg, then there is no scope for changing the ticket and they can hardly ask me to pay the full fare for a flight I didn't take on a ticket that I couldn't change?
The conditions of carriage prevent you from deliberately circumventing the fare rules in order to avoid paying the appropriate fare. If your situation changes and you cannot take your flight, that's a legitimate reason and the airlines are unlikely to pursue you. Note, though, that their conditions of carriage require you to contact the airline to let them know you're not coming in order to avoid penalty.

That's the letter of the law. Of course, the practice is different. Missing the occasional flight is unlikely to get you into a lot of trouble.

Habitually missing a flight, on the other hand, indicates that you are involved in throw-away ticketing in order to circumvent the fare rules. Airlines have 'revenue protection units' that are set up to look for abuses just like this. They can use your frequent flyer number or credit card number to track individual flyers and flight patterns.

While I haven't heard of cases specifically with Swiss, I have heard of enforcement with a number of US airlines as well as British Airways. Sanctions have included bans as well as closure of frequent flyer accounts (with confiscation of the miles in the account). An individual is more likely to be banned from future bookings than to have collection action against them, but a travel agent who knowingly books throw-away tickets is likely to be issued a debit note for the fare difference (which they'll end up stuck with, unless they can somehow charge it back to you). That's why travel agents are particular careful not to knowingly issue tickets where they know you intend to throw away the last segment.
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  #26  
Old 04.02.2011, 18:21
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

I've just read the T & C's on my ticket and no mentioned is made about unused portion's. Swiss conditions of carriage state:
3.3.3 Should you change your transportation without our agreement, we will calculate the correct fare for your actual travel. You will then have to pay any difference between the fare you have paid and the total fare applicable for your revised transportation. If the new fare is lower, we will refund the difference. Please note, however, that any unused Coupons will lose their value.


3.3.6 Please note that, should you not show up for a flight without advising us in advance, we may cancel any reservations you have for your return or onward flights.

So if you let them know, no problem.

Full C of C's:
http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/general/...rticle_03.aspx

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Old 04.02.2011, 18:46
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure WTF!

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The conditions of carriage prevent you from deliberately circumventing the fare rules in order to avoid paying the appropriate fare. If your situation changes and you cannot take your flight, that's a legitimate reason and the airlines are unlikely to pursue you. Note, though, that their conditions of carriage require you to contact the airline to let them know you're not coming in order to avoid penalty.

That's the letter of the law. Of course, the practice is different. Missing the occasional flight is unlikely to get you into a lot of trouble.

Habitually missing a flight, on the other hand, indicates that you are involved in throw-away ticketing in order to circumvent the fare rules. Airlines have 'revenue protection units' that are set up to look for abuses just like this. They can use your frequent flyer number or credit card number to track individual flyers and flight patterns.

While I haven't heard of cases specifically with Swiss, I have heard of enforcement with a number of US airlines as well as British Airways. Sanctions have included bans as well as closure of frequent flyer accounts (with confiscation of the miles in the account). An individual is more likely to be banned from future bookings than to have collection action against them, but a travel agent who knowingly books throw-away tickets is likely to be issued a debit note for the fare difference (which they'll end up stuck with, unless they can somehow charge it back to you). That's why travel agents are particular careful not to knowingly issue tickets where they know you intend to throw away the last segment.
Well to be honest I never do it on purpose, and even if I did I wouldn't buy the 2nd return ticket with Swiss (for the aforementioned infringement value). Most times its because I've booked a cheap return ZRH-London and then because of circumstances I've had to miss the return flight. Now the fare is completely without recourse, so what can I do? Buy a ticket with BA one way that's what I do. The Swiss one-way fares start at 388CHF from London and BA charge 59GBP - it's a no brainer.

That said the return ticket with Swiss is always cheaper..... so the moral of this story, if you book a cheap ticket with Swiss, make sure you can fly on those days, if you can't then BA or Biatch as my wife likes to call them for the one way back.
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  #28  
Old 04.02.2011, 18:48
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Re: Swiss Air charging structure WTF!

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Still I think there was a good question in this thread. Does anybody here know anybody that this has happened to?
There was a lawsuit about two years ago, I think in Zurich. I don't remember the details; after all I have other things to do. Anyway, a Swiss lady sued Swiss Air over an invoice issued for not having showed up for one leg of her trip Zurich -> Paris -> Zurich. She won the case, but just a few hours after the verdict, Swiss publicly announced that they will refund her but stick to the practice in general all the same.
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  #29  
Old 04.02.2011, 19:02
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

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I've just read the T & C's on my ticket and no mentioned is made about unused portion's. Swiss conditions of carriage state:
3.3.3 Should you change your transportation without our agreement, we will calculate the correct fare for your actual travel. You will then have to pay any difference between the fare you have paid and the total fare applicable for your revised transportation. If the new fare is lower, we will refund the difference. Please note, however, that any unused Coupons will lose their value.


3.3.6 Please note that, should you not show up for a flight without advising us in advance, we may cancel any reservations you have for your return or onward flights.

So if you let them know, no problem.

Full C of C's:
http://www.swiss.com/web/EN/general/...rticle_03.aspx

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I think the key part that you haven't bolded is

"Should you change your transportation without our agreement, we will calculate the correct fare for your actual travel. You will then have to pay any difference between the fare you have paid and the total fare applicable for your revised transportation."

Or to put it another way, if you buy a return ticket and then deliberately use it as a single without our agreement, we will calculate how much the single fare ticket would have cost for your journey, and you will have to pay the difference.

On legal principle I'd say that was pretty clear cut.
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  #30  
Old 04.02.2011, 20:06
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

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"Should you change your transportation without our agreement, we will calculate the correct fare for your actual travel. You will then have to pay any difference between the fare you have paid and the total fare applicable for your revised transportation."
I agree. This gives them plenty of leeway, but it isn't quite as explicit. Here's an example from Delta's Conditions of Carriage, for comparison:

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Rule 100G
… a ticket is invalid: … if Delta Air Lines determines that the ticket has been purchased or used in a manner designed to circumvent applicable fare rules. Where a ticket is invalidated as the result of the passenger’s non-compliance with any term or condition of sale, Delta Air Lines has the right in its sole discretion to: Cancel any remaining portion of the passenger’s itinerary, Confiscate unused flight coupons, Refuse to board the passenger or check the passenger’s baggage, or Assess the passenger for the reasonable remaining value of the ticket, which shall be no less than the difference between the fare actually paid and the lowest fare applicable to the passenger’s actual itinerary.
The American airlines seem quite keen on pursuing habitual offenders. Not sure if the European airlines are so aggressive.
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  #31  
Old 04.02.2011, 20:19
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

i would always take LHR over LCY, as LCY closes in bad weather but LHR remains open. And if a technical fault develops LCY is an inflight return to ZRH or diversion to STN
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  #32  
Old 04.02.2011, 20:28
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

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i would always take LHR over LCY, as LCY closes in bad weather but LHR remains open. And if a technical fault develops LCY is an inflight return to ZRH or diversion to STN
Unless, of course, The World's Busiest International Airport were to be hypothetically closed due to a wee bit of snow, with many thousands of travellers stranded and kipping in the terminals, whilst LCY were to stay open and running normally during that entire period.


Not that that would ever happen, of course
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  #33  
Old 04.02.2011, 20:28
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

I decided to stay longer in England so bought a new return ticket. When I got to the airport my flight was canceled as I didn't get the first flight. I then had to buy a new return.
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  #34  
Old 04.02.2011, 20:35
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

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I decided to stay longer in England so bought a new return ticket. When I got to the airport my flight was canceled as I didn't get the first flight. I then had to buy a new return.
So they got 3 lots of return fares from you. Thats appalling I wanted to say something else but I'm too polite.
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  #35  
Old 04.02.2011, 21:05
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

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Unless, of course, The World's Busiest International Airport were to be hypothetically closed due to a wee bit of snow, with many thousands of travellers stranded and kipping in the terminals, whilst LCY were to stay open and running normally during that entire period.


Not that that would ever happen, of course

of course never......

Just last night a flight to LCY had to divert back to ZRH due to technical issues, and 2 days ago LCY was closed due to freezing fog, only briefly but enough.
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  #36  
Old 04.02.2011, 21:07
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

@ terry H & Village idiot.

Seems the chap on the Swiss customer service help desk I just spoke to disagrees with you. I gave him my booking ref' and outlined my position (as stated in the opening post) and the guy on the other end said as long as notification is given and the reason explained as I just did, it would not be a problem as they understand people cannot sometimes make flights, he did however stress that they take a very different view on no shows without justification.

So I'm happy should things head south for my unc' I'll be ok, and I have the guys' name...JIC
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  #37  
Old 05.02.2011, 00:32
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

In the being fined thread. I used to travel back and forth from the UK each week did bin a few "return" legs, no fines.

We also used to find that is was cheaper to include a weekend stay, instead of only Monday to Friday.

So we used to have overlapping and originate one in UK, one in CH.

Now I need to explain... hmmm

Monday UK-CH - previous ticket "return"
Friday CH-UK - "outward" journey new ticket
Monday UK-CH - "inward" ticket
Friday CH-UK - start again.

Not sure that actually makes sense when I try to write it, but maybe you are cleverer than me and will understand

Might be worth checking if you need to use Swiss if there are still differences!?
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  #38  
Old 05.02.2011, 10:00
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

Unfortunately BA do not fly direct to Zurich from Manchester so for one way flight from there it's either easyjet or swiss.

From London, it's City all the way especially if you are flying BA. During those interminable strikes the BA flights to/from LCY continue unaffected because it's an independent subsidiary that operates those flights and not the bit that was striking.

Easyjet, I believe, like most budget airlines, actually sell you two single tickets not one return, I think because this exempts them from some responsibilities should you get stranded during your stay away or something like that.
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  #39  
Old 05.02.2011, 10:43
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

Due to a series of ineptitudes (mostly mine, I'll admit, though I maintain it all started with the family member making the holiday booking forgetting I had moved to Switzerland ), on New Year's Day I flew (Swiss) to London, to get flight early the following morning to Grenoble to go skiing for a week. The return was Grenoble-London HR-Zurich-Basel - 20 hrs travelling door to door. I decided (already knew) that was ridiculous, so got the train back. The morning of the return I phoned Swiss to find out if I could get refund for that leg (knew it would be a no, but you gotta try) or rebook. It seemed that it would cost me CHF 200 to cancel the flight or rebook, so Swiss service person said in the circumstances probably better to be a "no show". He'd taken my booking ref. to check terms of the booking, but didn't indicate that he would be telling anyone at Heathrow I wasn't going to show up, nor that there would be any repercussions. Of course, I have no intention of repeating this daft journey, so hopefully won't get blacklisted...
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  #40  
Old 06.02.2011, 13:59
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Re: Swiss [the Airline] charging structure is bonkers!

You didn't hear it from me.

BUT...

IF you're going to no-show on the 2nd Leg of a return ticket, then call Swiss first and tell them you're sick, you can't fly, please cancel my segment and you'll "contact them again to rebook after you're better and fit to fly".

No drama.

Also, you are releasing a seat for somebody else who may want to travel urgently on your flight, and that is "fair play".

Last edited by oldmanc; 06.02.2011 at 14:00. Reason: speling
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