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Old 14.03.2011, 00:58
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I think you should go back to look at some of your thread.... Apparently you got your share of potty training yourself.... Do you see yourself as full trained?

Let me try to explain what I meant by being potty trained in Switzerland.

Switzerland is a fabulously well maintained country. If you have any qualms about that, give it an honest comparison to the majority of other countries in the world.

The reason for Switzerland's success is due to the diligence, hard work and conscientiousness of Swiss people. While in other countries of the world, people strive to benefit themselves, their group or clan; in Switzerland, the Swiss people strive for the benefit of their country and society. They do this, even foregoing their own selfish ambition; because they know that when all is said and done, what they are left with is their country. They realize that this land is more precious than anything any individual can gain for themselves. And so, this shows in the success Switzerland has had as a country.

When a foreigner comes to Switzerland, not understanding what it takes to keep this country what it is, it shows in their habits and attitudes. It shows what little appreciation they have for this country and those who have contributed so much to make it what it is. And for those who see such situations and understand both sides, there is the realization that it is not Switzerland who is being unfair to foreigners, rather that the foreigner does not understand the privilege that has been granted to them in living here. They are no more nor less freer here than any other Swiss aborigine who is born to generations here. Should they expect more? No, they should not expect to be given the keys to the city.

If you are a foreigner in Switzerland who thinks that you deserve the credit for the success of Switzerland, and that you are of so high value that Switzerland should be kowtowing to you, then I urge you... no, I beg and plead with you to PLEASE move to somewhere else like say, Mexico, the Philippines, or Egypt. Because if you are truly of that much value, those countries can use you much, much more than Switzerland can.

Now, some Swiss are more patient than others, and are way too polite to say anything. Some Swiss don't even see the importance of their own contribution anymore, and don't even know what to ask of foreigners. But those who have been brought up to contribute value to this country still do, and set examples to foreigners who are trying to learn how to integrate into this country. For many Swiss, foreigners are held suspect until they mature and are brought into the fold. And there are a vast many foreigners who have been accepted in Swiss society.

To be potty trained, in my own use of the word in the previous post, is to understand that implications of one's own behavior here, and to do the right thing. It implies doing things for the benefit of society. The first step towards this is to look after one's own messy-do, and cleaning up after oneself. This is very hard to do for some people who come from places where they have developed the habit of pottying anywhere they please. Simply put, my use of potty training means doing the right thing here.

Mistakes are mistakes, and the Swiss can be quite forgiving. They may keep people in line with fines and other discomforts, but it is for the purpose of potty training. In due time.
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Old 14.03.2011, 01:11
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Re: Whining and complaining

@Phos - Loved those baby pics, especially the last one. Boy, did he or she look angry or what!?
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Old 14.03.2011, 02:35
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Re: Whining and complaining

There is a fallacy in ranting about "prices" in Switzerland. The rants occur because prices are compared to other countries' prices in a different currency (EUR, USD, GBP). The CHF is strong so prices here appear abnormally high for the same goods. If the CHF were to fall, then the rants would disappear.

If one is paid in CHF, then nothing changes for that person whether the other currency rises or falls; prices in CHF stays the same. So if an item appears to be expensive because it takes a significant amount of income then one uses a value judgment ("I need it so I will buy petrol, food, and health insurance. I don't need it so I will pass on the LV bag.")

So my philosophy is if one has the chance to buy something cheap in another country, then just do it. If not, then just be glad that one has enough disposable income to live fine here and stop comparing prices like a newbie expat!
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Old 14.03.2011, 03:09
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Re: Whining and complaining

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There is a fallacy in ranting about "prices" in Switzerland. The rants occur because prices are compared to other countries' prices in a different currency (EUR, USD, GBP). The CHF is strong so prices here appear abnormally high for the same goods. If the CHF were to fall, then the rants would disappear.

If one is paid in CHF, then nothing changes for that person whether the other currency rises or falls; prices in CHF stays the same. So if an item appears to be expensive because it takes a significant amount of income then one uses a value judgment ("I need it so I will buy petrol, food, and health insurance. I don't need it so I will pass on the LV bag.")

So my philosophy is if one has the chance to buy something cheap in another country, then just do it. If not, then just be glad that one has enough disposable income to live fine here and stop comparing prices like a newbie expat!
Come on, the prices are (virtually) the same here now as when I visited in 2006! Beside that though, I think the problem isn't with the "value" but rather a case of "sticker shock"... once one is here for a while, one gets used to seeing those prices and stops being shocked every time.

As my husband works in the service industry, we are quite aware of the "trickle down" in retail / consumer prices vs pay. For doing the same job in the US that he does now, he'd probably take home about half of what he does here. On the other hand, his healthcare may or may not be at least partially paid by his employer (mine was there) while here we pay close to 1000chf monthly for us both.

Of course, a trade off is that in the US, I "had" to own a car in order to get myself to and from work, here there is wonderful public transportation that is pretty clean and is widely used by a good cross-section of society. Between car payment and insurance though, it sort-of is a bit of a wash though too, if you really look at the cost of the car (mine was nothing special, just a 4-door Chevy Cavalier) and it's upkeep vs the costs of daily fare.


Meanwhile, I am a smart enough cookie to know quite well that our lives ARE better in some important aspects here than they would be in the US, particularly right now. Neither of us have any official education beyond high school, I apprenticed for my trade and hubby did the same for his. With so many people in the US struggling to find employment currently, it's hard to say how lucky we'd get to not only get jobs but ones that provide the benefits we can afford to pay out of pocket (as required) for here.

There are many aspects of being here and living here that I love. The mountains, the Rhine, being able to hop over to Germany or France within minutes. Having the opportunity to learn not just one but three (plus) languages by speaking to people on the street (although of course one is most prevalent). I love going to the center of town and seeing buildings that were built in the 1300's - you simply don't see that in the cities in the US. The sense of a shared history among the local people is amazing to me.


There are good parts and there are bad parts about being here, just as there is anywhere. I didn't always love being in Daytona Beach, in the Chicago suburbs, in Hawaii, California, Texas, Okinawa, Oregon, or Georgia either... but I also didn't always hate it.

I think it is good to release some of the pent-up frustrations with a healthy whine sometimes... I also think though that it is good to sometimes verbalize (or at least give conscious thought) what we find to be lovely and fantastic as well, it helps us really "see" it.
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  #45  
Old 14.03.2011, 09:06
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Re: Whining and complaining

I want to complain in the strongest possible terms about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain.

If you don't like reading complaints threads on the EF, nobody is forcing you to read them! Why not just go back to your own Forum if you hate it so much!

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  #46  
Old 14.03.2011, 09:08
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I want to complain in the strongest possible terms about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain.

If you don't like reading complaints threads on the EF, nobody is forcing you to read them! Why not just go back to your own Forum if you hate it so much!

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Old 14.03.2011, 09:38
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I want to complain in the strongest possible terms about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain.

If you don't like reading complaints threads on the EF, nobody is forcing you to read them! Why not just go back to your own Forum if you hate it so much!

Cheers,
Nick
And let me add;

From someone who is new here and saw too little about the whole forum and members participation. One month in here and complaining about people who complain? Before to do that, make your own little research and look at all the other thread where people talk about how nice this or that is here.

I don't see members coming here just to complain...
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Old 14.03.2011, 09:52
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Re: Whining and complaining

In my personal experience, those that complain the loudest about the cost of living are those with the most unpaid bills(tax included). I think comparing the tax percentage paid to the services provided, you would be hard pressed to find somewhere better. Im almost certain someone will drag out some UN statistics to prove me wrong, but that s my two centimes worth. Have a nice week everyone
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Old 14.03.2011, 10:16
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I think comparing the tax percentage paid to the services provided, you would be hard pressed to find somewhere better.
No UN statistic but I think this isn't true. It's important to compare like for like so if I add the total tax I pay to my medical insurance, medical insurance franchise/excess and then add mandatory contributions like AHV etc, I'd consider my tax to be pretty high.

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I want to complain in the strongest possible terms about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain about the people who come on the EF and do nothing but complain.

If you don't like reading complaints threads on the EF, nobody is forcing you to read them! Why not just go back to your own Forum if you hate it so much!

Cheers,
Nick
Nick seriously, no one is forcing you to read complaint threads about people who complain, if you don't like them just stick to the regular complaints...wait I think I'm lost.
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Old 14.03.2011, 13:47
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Re: Whining and complaining

When I stand in a Swiss shop and look at the prices, I feel the need to run away, far away. NEVERTHELESS, the main reason I do not complain about Swiss prices is that I asked a math teacher to do the % for me:
- in Basel, I need 17% of my netto salary for eating the way I like, including my bills at Sprüngli and Merkur.
- It was 21% of my dutch salary when I was in Amsterdam including my bills at Leonidas.

(OBS: being a teacher, salary is set by the system with little possibility to get special treatment, so that these numbers can be compared methodologically speaking: it is the same life in two different places according to the local normal treatment)

But I do buy most of my cloths in Germany. Just because I can, I am often in Germany anyway.

If the numbers are the other way around for you, why not complaining? Why staying? Why moving? The other factors around grocery will answer those questions, but they are legitimate.
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Old 14.03.2011, 13:55
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Re: Whining and complaining

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But I do buy most of my cloths in Germany. Just because I can, I am often in Germany anyway.
That is strange - I always think that clothes prices in CHF are the same in EUR in Germany, e.g. Jeans for 129 CHf are 129EUR (the same brand, style, size) which is at the moment about 30% more expensive...correct me if I'm wrong
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Old 14.03.2011, 13:58
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Re: Whining and complaining

Lucky that I go to UK every couple of months and buy anything clothes I need there. At least in UK I can get clothes that fit
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Old 14.03.2011, 14:01
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Re: Whining and complaining

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That is strange - I always think that clothes prices in CHF are the same in EUR in Germany, e.g. Jeans for 129 CHf are 129EUR (the same brand, style, size) which is at the moment about 30% more expensive...correct me if I'm wrong
I am very sorry to have to correct you with the hardest whipping ever allowed in victorian schools
This kind of thing may happen, but the normal case is rather +20% in CH. Looking at the european price tag teaches you so much about macroeconomics.

But still, even for clothes, the % made by my math colleague probaly would show the same difference. Lower or same % of Swiss salary for what I buy than/as in NL with dutch salary. Down the line, I can only say that I save more in Basel than in Amsterdam... that's proof enough to non-mathematician me that prices are all right in CH in the big picture, but there is nothing wrong saving when one can (my example was clothing).
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Old 14.03.2011, 14:24
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I am very sorry to have to correct you with the hardest whipping ever allowed in victorian schools
This kind of thing may happen, but the normal case is rather +20% in CH. Looking at the european price tag teaches you so much about macroeconomics.
He is right,

Look at online stores like Crocs and Verbaudet. Look at the .fr or .de compared to the .ch

Prices are almost double in ch than in the two others... Same items.
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Old 19.03.2011, 20:10
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I went farther than you did...I started enjoying it. It gives me satisfaction to hear of all these people having all these difficulties in their lives, it just makes me enjoy mine and live it to the fullest. It has done wonders for me. Keep complaining hehe

That was mean wasn't it?
Now I see the light! I think I'll go even further and raise you. I'll mock the self-pitying fools....

Too Bad; So Sad

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Old 19.03.2011, 20:50
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Re: Whining and complaining

Hi,

I originally came here because I was headhunted for a contract - and this was in 2001, before the bilateral agreement i.e. the client had to prove that there was not a Swiss person able to do my job. The other offer I had at the time was in Lisbon.

I'm quite happy in CH; that said many things are expensive thus I save many of my big purchases (clothes etc) for when I am in the Netherlands or the UK. Also after a trip around the open air market in Lindenplatz today where I bought a few veg, some honey and some cheese my wallet felt like it had been on a trip to Harrods.

I will pay those prices but it doesn't mean I have to like it, nor should I feel prevented from having a moan about it now and again. Switzerland is a democratic country after all....isn't it? Hence I do find the OP's "leave if you don't like it" comments to be particularly weak and hardly original. Though I agree that some of the posters on here who do complain come across as being a little neurotic and would probably find things to complain about wherever they happened to be.

I've lived in a lot of different places and have generally managed to find enough good bits in each place to outweigh the bad bits; so can't really say that one place was better than the other. Despite being in Zürich for nearly a year I think I still prefer Basel for reasons I am not able to put my finger on - perhaps being a member of a Fasnacht clique might have a bearing on it.

One more thing: the other week I was setting trail for the Hash House Harriers around Albisrieden when I was approached by two plainclothes cops who has seen me putting down flour (white substance etc). After I explained what it was about and tasted the flour - and they ran an ID check it was all fine and dandy (namedropping an area police commander who runs with us from time to time may have helped of course...) and they asked where they can find out about the next run. By contrast I have read horror stories from the US, UK and Italy where hashers putting down trail have been arrested and prosecuted for anything from vandalism to causing alarm when some residents thought it was anthrax!

Cheers,
Nick
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Old 19.03.2011, 22:17
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I find it annoying that people who have come to Switzerland because they like the country/want to earn more etc. are constantly complaining about the cost of things. To these I would like to say: look around you and try to enjoy the many advantages you have instead.

I do not understand that if it is all so bad, that they do not then go back home or across the border where apparently everything is so much better.

To the complaints around lack/cost of accomodation, I agree and we all suffer under these ridiculous prices, but they do not seem to realise that they themselves are contributing to the increased cost of accomodation in places such as in Zurich and in Geneva by all coming here. Sorry if I sound like the SVP.
It's not the foreigners which are complaining about high rents, it's the swiss...Swiss blame foreigners though for driving up the prices, which is absurd...a swiss competent resource would pay the same for an apartment as a german competent resource...the rental companies are not raising the rent due the that the person is a foreigner but due to that the person can afford to pay more due to the location...
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Old 19.03.2011, 22:38
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Re: Whining and complaining

OK... I'll add my complaint...

I'm moving from one of the most expensive areas of the US to CH. My mortgage equates to 1450CHF for a 160m2 house.

Remarkably, I'm not too bothered by the prospect of having 80m2 for 2000CHF. But good grief.... why did I have to go and do the math?
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Old 19.03.2011, 22:46
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OK... I'll add my complaint...

I'm moving from one of the most expensive areas of the US to CH. My mortgage equates to 1450CHF for a 160m2 house.

Remarkably, I'm not too bothered by the prospect of having 80m2 for 2000CHF. But good grief.... why did I have to go and do the math?
I know that one... when I moved from England to Switzerland, I went from a mortgage of about 700 CHF per month to rent of more than 2000 CHF per month.

And I experienced a drop in my salary.

Ouch.

I got used to it in the end, though. One grows to love soup...
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Old 19.03.2011, 23:20
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Re: Whining and complaining

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I think for the most part it's just shock. Someone I know moved here and lived and worked in Zurich for around 2 years and now lives in the UK. Almost every time we speak with each other, she mentions how expensive it was living here when comparing it to the UK.
I live in ignorant bliss and I love it . I hail from a country where cost of living is so ridiculous it makes you cry.
comparing to the UK ? The U.K. in the early 70ies, with the UK£ being at around 8.58 to the CHF, was rather on the expensive side, in spite of the £ having been around CHF 12 only in the late 60ies. When the Pound slided down quite nicely in the late 70ies, the UK became a heaven of low prices for Continentals going shopping to London and remained so into the 80ies. BUT in the late 80ies, first the U.K. hotels started to become unacceptably expensive and in the 90ies, everything in the U.K. even for a tourist, became rather expensive again. All this is NOT an academic study but just my personal experience. And of course has nothing to do with developments in the UK of the first decade of the new century
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