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Old 18.03.2011, 16:23
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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Because, here it is locally used a lot. Depending on the context, it can be degrading (often), neutral or positive (mainly because being Swiss can be viewed as negativ as well in the same context).
But that does not explain the obsession, does it. Maybe I should reframe the question: IMHO there is, to the anglos, a clear difference between "ausländer" and "foreigner" that goes way beyond the different language. My question is basically whether there is a specific explanation to that.
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Old 18.03.2011, 16:26
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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Moving to the US especially SoCal will not exactly be a walk in the park in terms of opening and running a business. To open a bar, expect to pay high taxes, (California is the most unfriendly state in the US when it comes to small business tax conditions). You will also need to have a high US credit score to access any capital, as lending requirements are currently very strigent in California. (Swiss credit history cannot be substituted for US credit history to create a high credit score). Also, you will need a liquor license, to run an establishment that serves alcohol. Expect the bureaucratic run around when applying for this license ( you will wish you were back in Switzerland when confronted with the US bureaucratic apparatus). Expect extreme competition (there are bars everywhere in Cali), there are many businesses in California that open up and just don't make it. Above all, expect angry patrons who get drunk, yell and throw stuff around (you might find Swiss youths to have better manners than US youths). Also, in Cali everyone is broke, the economy is still in shambles and the workers you will hire will likely be unproductive and tired since they will be balancing two to three other jobs just to make ends meet. Thats if you can hire any workers that actually speak English and not exclusively Spanish. Finally, I realize you might have a picture of how the US was before 08' but after the crises, the business landscape in California has changed quite a bit from my understanding. The feeling you get is that more businesses are closing rather than opening. So before you rush over to the US, you should weigh your options carefully. Of course you could have had the expericence of opening and running a business in California and if that is the case you may know all this information already.
Now you ruined it all,let him try ,after that he will love Switzerland BTW this does not only applies to Cali. all of North>North America
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  #383  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:30
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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I'd like to know where the anglos obsession with that term comes from, as it is one of the very few german expressions that are consistently used on english speaking forums?


From Swiss people who use it to describe second class people, maybe, or from the fact that we have to have Auslanderausweises, or to describe the (un)healthy level of xenophobia/racism in CH?

Sorry if this is news for you, but as foreigners dealing with the Fremdenpolizei or border police - something most Swiss, I guess, don't have to do - we can get to see the nasty side of this country in a different way to the locals, not to mention the ever-regular bulletins from the SVP.

For heaven's sake, even the Swiss comment on the fact that if your Heimatort isn't "here" then you are a foreigner. I guess at least that makes it somewhat equally discriminatory...

PS: it's not just the "anglos" who see this. Indeed, if you are northern white European, you're unlikely to see it much... HTH

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Because, here it is locally used a lot. Depending on the context, it can be degrading (often), neutral or positive (mainly because being Swiss can be viewed as negativ as well in the same context).
I would add, that I don't think I've ever heard a Swiss person use this as a positive comment, and most expats use it as a "badge of honour" of sorts.
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  #384  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:49
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Re: Damn I hate this country

Well I am British - lived there most of my adult life, married to a Brit, with British children and grand-children, a British Uni Degree, a British career-I've lived in many locations in England, traveled all over, understand the history well, speak the language fluently, understand all the different dialects... and yet when I suggested I was British - it did raise a few eyebrows here. It really made me laugh- because people on EF often say it would take decades to be accepted as Swiss in CH (I lived in the UK 40 years). Pot-black, goose-ganders? LOL.
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Old 18.03.2011, 16:51
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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Well I am British - lived there most of my adult life, married to a Brit, with British children and grand-children, a British Uni Degree, a British career-I've lived in many locations in England, traveled all over, understand the history well, speak the language fluently, understand all the different dialects... and yet when I suggested I was British - it did raise a few eyebrows here. It really made me laugh- because people on EF often say it would take decades to be accepted as Swiss in CH (I lived in the UK 40 years). Pot-black, goose-ganders? LOL.
sorry to break it to you, but you are not british.
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  #386  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:54
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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sorry to break it to you, but you are not british.
If she's been "naturalised" (which I guess she has if she married "one of us"), then she is.
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  #387  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:57
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Re: Damn I hate this country

Well there you go, straight from the horse's mouth And yet I am perhaps the only Brit here who has had to swear allegiance to the Queen and her descendants in order to get my British nationality and passport. So what do I have to do to be accepted as a Brit?
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  #388  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:58
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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Lets use this to get all frustration out with this hole of a country.

I hate every single second i am here,
I hate the people
I hate the system
i hate the police
I hate everything about it.
you get ripped off every single second you are here
yes you earn more but prices do not equate that into buying power

yes you might say, move the hell out, well current situation does not allow for that....so no. If I could I would be long gone and NEVER come back to this HOLE.
LOL....I felt the same way couple of times here (now wait a sec...I remember couple of times I felt the same way in my homecountry..?!) ....I don't know, maybe is just a phase? Let's wait for the summer or at least the spring to come and then please, do tell us about your feelings..
  #389  
Old 18.03.2011, 16:59
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Re: Damn I hate this country

to be clear. i'm not talking about legal status, but rather the attitude/outlook/demeanour. would a majority of british people consider her british by the attitude? i suspect not.

i don't particularly consider myself to be british either, but i obviously have some british traits and perhaps could be considered to be 'british' by a majority of british people.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:00
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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PS: it's not just the "anglos" who see this. Indeed, if you are northern white European, you're unlikely to see it much... HTH.
I was not talking about that. I was talking about the obsession with the term "ausländer" per se.

Maybe that is the wrong thread for that, so forget about it.


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I would add, that I don't think I've ever heard a Swiss person use this as a positive comment, and most expats use it as a "badge of honour" of sorts.
Just one last remark. "Ausländer" is equally used in positive contexts, by people who are very far from any suspicion of being racist. Hence my question. Nevermind.
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  #391  
Old 18.03.2011, 17:03
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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So what do I have to do to be accepted as a Brit?
i guess you could also ask what does it take for a man to be accepted as a (transexual) woman?

i think one key difference is that in the uk, you are just 'accepted' not as a 'brit' or as a 'foreigner' but accepted as a person and treated as a person. your daily interactions do not (usually) require permanent reinforcement of your status as a foreigner either by casual labelling or though discrimination.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:04
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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to be clear. i'm not talking about legal status, but rather the attitude/outlook/demeanour. would a majority of british people consider her british by the attitude? i suspect not.

i don't particularly consider myself to be british either, but i obviously have some british traits and perhaps could be considered to be 'british' by a majority of british people.
Indeed, and I'm in the same boat - I've lived more of my life outside of the UK than in it. But I'm still British, and if Odile has that little burgundy (vs. red ) book then she is too.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:05
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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OT question: IMHO, there is no direct connotation to the term "ausländer". The connotation comes (IMHO) from the context or prononciation etc.

"Er ist ein Ausländer" in itself is a completely neutral statement of fact, very much the same as its English translation "he is a foreigner".

I'd like to know where the anglos obsession with that term comes from, as it is one of the very few german expressions that are consistently used on english speaking forums?
(1) 'Foreigner' is an everyday word; all of us have referred to so many people as 'foreigners' so many times that it's worn the word smooth, far as we are concerned. 'Ausländer' is a new acquisition; worse, it's Their name for Us. All politics is personal - except when it's tribal.
(2) Etymology. 'Ausländer' might mean 'foreigner' but it's not cognate to 'foreigner'. Ausländer, jemand von Ausland, outlandish, outsider. Ausländerausweis = 'outsider's papers'. To be honest if you called us 'Fremden' it would probably go down better, even though that's the harsher of the two in German.

Our problem, not yours - but you did ask.
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  #394  
Old 18.03.2011, 17:06
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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But that does not explain the obsession, does it. Maybe I should reframe the question: IMHO there is, to the anglos, a clear difference between "ausländer" and "foreigner" that goes way beyond the different language. My question is basically whether there is a specific explanation to that.
I feel both situations. Strange, I know.
As German speaker in Germany, I use the word Ausländer without a hint of a start of negative thoughts, it can be Danes sitting at the next table in my favourite café in Hamburg or the violent b**** from the newspaper, Ausländer is just a fact: non-German person.
In Switzerland, I hear the word Uusländer, and I understand the undertone the "Anglos" (as you put it) hear in it. The number of times it is used in conversation, the care taken to repeat it with the look that goes with it and so on...
I know the word is the word is the word. I am German speaker too. But I know being a foreigner is being a foreigner is being a foreigner.

It's ambiguous, and we have to accept that as such. I just don't know when it is ment racist and when not. I don't know and I can't know. I am just sure of one thing: sometimes, it is racist - othertimes, it is not.

I think I have explained to you that the Rumantsch use the word esters. They have the same mentality as the Swiss German, just a little bit more funny, and Blocher is citizen of honnor of the Rumantsch faction commune of Lü, in Val Müstair (Münstertal). But they use esters about Blocher and any Swiss German too, and about the Südtiroler working with them, and the other Rumantsch from the other valley, and the familly originating from the next village.... all esters. I don't see a psycho-linguitic difference between Rumantsch speakers and Swiss Germans, one reads the exact same comments about foreigners in the press (and I read La Quotidiana every day). So how can we know for sure if Uusländer is racist when esters is used so unracistly?
well... we can't. Sorry.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:07
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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I was not talking about that. I was talking about the obsession with the term "ausländer" per se.
i think there is a difference. here in switzerland, i find people are labelled as foreigners and a negative connotation is attached. the difference or alien-ness is emphasised.

so for example, in switzerland you may be referred to as a foreigner whereas i think in the uk, your background might not be commented on at all, or where if it is, instead of being called a foreigner/alien, they would say something like "bob is from germany".
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:10
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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to be clear. i'm not talking about legal status, but rather the attitude/outlook/demeanour. would a majority of british people consider her british by the attitude? i suspect not.

i don't particularly consider myself to be british either, but i obviously have some british traits and perhaps could be considered to be 'british' by a majority of british people.
This is just so out of order- but being British, I can't be arsed to reply, honest however I'd just say your comment defo lacks Britishness. How can people complain about attitudes to Auslander in CH, then come up with this rubbish.
Carlos, I do indeed have the Burgundy little book - not had a Red once since the last one expired in 72.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:11
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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so for example, in switzerland you may be referred to as a foreigner whereas i think in the uk, your background might not be commented on at all, or where if it is, instead of being called a foreigner/alien, they would say something like "bob is from germany".
Yeah, but that's the same here, isn't it? I don't think I've ever been introduced as, or referred to in my hearing as, an "Ausländerin". It's always "sie kommt aus Amerika" or "sie ist Amerikanerin."
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  #398  
Old 18.03.2011, 17:16
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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I was not talking about that. I was talking about the obsession with the term "ausländer" per se.

Maybe that is the wrong thread for that, so forget about it.

Just one last remark. "Ausländer" is equally used in positive contexts, by people who are very far from any suspicion of being racist. Hence my question. Nevermind.
I'm happy to share my opinion and experiences - no need to forget.

I don't think there is an obsession per se. Rather that there's no equivalent in English, so the word is going to stand out like a sore thumb when used in English(-language) conversation.

Don't get me wrong. I fully agree that Ausländer can be used in a matter of fact way and in a positive way. I just believe - based on anecdotes, what else? - that when used by the Swiss bureaucracy it is usually in a negative connotation, nevermind the high-profile SVP campaigns.

I should, at this point, repeat (as stated previously) that I very much enjoy my life here in CH, and I'm lucky 'cos I landed in Basel. But equally I accept that life is not a bed of roses for all expats here, precisely because they are "Ausländers".
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:21
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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Yeah, but that's the same here, isn't it? I don't think I've ever been introduced as, or referred to in my hearing as, an "Ausländerin". It's always "sie kommt aus Amerika" or "sie ist Amerikanerin."
i think it is also the frequency of use. after all, how often and regularly do you need to be told (and reminded) that you are a foreigner? in switzerland, it seems to be quite often. in the uk, not so much.
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Old 18.03.2011, 17:22
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Re: Damn I hate this country

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This is just so out of order- but being British, I can't be arsed to reply, honest however I'd just say your comment defo lacks Britishness. How can people complain about attitudes to Auslander in CH, then come up with this rubbish.
like i said, i don't consider myself to be particularly british

and i'm not complaining about the attitude to auslander in CH. but i admit to coming up with this rubbish
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