But that does not explain the obsession, does it. Maybe I should reframe the question: IMHO there is, to the anglos, a clear difference between "ausländer" and "foreigner" that goes way beyond the different language. My question is basically whether there is a specific explanation to that.

Now you ruined it all,let him try ,after that he will love Switzerland BTW this does not only applies to Cali. all of North>North America

From Swiss people who use it to describe second class people, maybe, or from the fact that we have to have Auslanderausweises, or to describe the (un)healthy level of xenophobia/racism in CH?

Sorry if this is news for you, but as foreigners dealing with the Fremdenpolizei or border police - something most Swiss, I guess, don't have to do - we can get to see the nasty side of this country in a different way to the locals, not to mention the ever-regular bulletins from the SVP.

For heaven's sake, even the Swiss comment on the fact that if your Heimatort isn't "here" then you are a foreigner. I guess at least that makes it somewhat equally discriminatory...

PS: it's not just the "anglos" who see this. Indeed, if you are northern white European, you're unlikely to see it much... HTH

I would add, that I don't think I've ever heard a Swiss person use this as a positive comment, and most expats use it as a "badge of honour" of sorts.

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Well I am British - lived there most of my adult life, married to a Brit, with British children and grand-children, a British Uni Degree, a British career-I've lived in many locations in England, traveled all over, understand the history well, speak the language fluently, understand all the different dialects... and yet when I suggested I was British - it did raise a few eyebrows here. It really made me laugh- because people on EF often say it would take decades to be accepted as Swiss in CH (I lived in the UK 40 years). Pot-black, goose-ganders? LOL.

sorry to break it to you, but you are not british.

If she's been "naturalised" (which I guess she has if she married "one of us"), then she is.

Well there you go, straight from the horse's mouth And yet I am perhaps the only Brit here who has had to swear allegiance to the Queen and her descendants in order to get my British nationality and passport. So what do I have to do to be accepted as a Brit?

LOL....I felt the same way couple of times here (now wait a sec...I remember couple of times I felt the same way in my homecountry..?!) ....I don't know, maybe is just a phase? Let's wait for the summer or at least the spring to come and then please, do tell us about your feelings..

to be clear. i'm not talking about legal status, but rather the attitude/outlook/demeanour. would a majority of british people consider her british by the attitude? i suspect not.

i don't particularly consider myself to be british either, but i obviously have some british traits and perhaps could be considered to be 'british' by a majority of british people.

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I was not talking about that. I was talking about the obsession with the term "ausländer" per se.

Maybe that is the wrong thread for that, so forget about it.


Just one last remark. "Ausländer" is equally used in positive contexts, by people who are very far from any suspicion of being racist. Hence my question. Nevermind.

i guess you could also ask what does it take for a man to be accepted as a (transexual) woman?

i think one key difference is that in the uk, you are just 'accepted' not as a 'brit' or as a 'foreigner' but accepted as a person and treated as a person. your daily interactions do not (usually) require permanent reinforcement of your status as a foreigner either by casual labelling or though discrimination.

Indeed, and I'm in the same boat - I've lived more of my life outside of the UK than in it. But I'm still British, and if Odile has that little burgundy (vs. red ) book then she is too.

(1) 'Foreigner' is an everyday word; all of us have referred to so many people as 'foreigners' so many times that it's worn the word smooth, far as we are concerned. 'Ausländer' is a new acquisition; worse, it's Their name for Us. All politics is personal - except when it's tribal.
(2) Etymology. 'Ausländer' might mean 'foreigner' but it's not cognate to 'foreigner'. Ausländer, jemand von Ausland, outlandish, outsider. Ausländerausweis = 'outsider's papers'. To be honest if you called us 'Fremden' it would probably go down better, even though that's the harsher of the two in German.

Our problem, not yours - but you did ask.

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I feel both situations. Strange, I know.
As German speaker in Germany, I use the word Ausländer without a hint of a start of negative thoughts, it can be Danes sitting at the next table in my favourite café in Hamburg or the violent b**** from the newspaper, Ausländer is just a fact: non-German person.
In Switzerland, I hear the word Uusländer, and I understand the undertone the "Anglos" (as you put it) hear in it. The number of times it is used in conversation, the care taken to repeat it with the look that goes with it and so on...
I know the word is the word is the word. I am German speaker too. But I know being a foreigner is being a foreigner is being a foreigner.

It's ambiguous, and we have to accept that as such. I just don't know when it is ment racist and when not. I don't know and I can't know. I am just sure of one thing: sometimes, it is racist - othertimes, it is not.

I think I have explained to you that the Rumantsch use the word esters. They have the same mentality as the Swiss German, just a little bit more funny, and Blocher is citizen of honnor of the Rumantsch faction commune of Lü, in Val Müstair (Münstertal). But they use esters about Blocher and any Swiss German too, and about the Südtiroler working with them, and the other Rumantsch from the other valley, and the familly originating from the next village.... all esters. I don't see a psycho-linguitic difference between Rumantsch speakers and Swiss Germans, one reads the exact same comments about foreigners in the press (and I read La Quotidiana every day). So how can we know for sure if Uusländer is racist when esters is used so unracistly?
well... we can't. Sorry.

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Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.

i think there is a difference. here in switzerland, i find people are labelled as foreigners and a negative connotation is attached. the difference or alien-ness is emphasised.

so for example, in switzerland you may be referred to as a foreigner whereas i think in the uk, your background might not be commented on at all, or where if it is, instead of being called a foreigner/alien, they would say something like "bob is from germany".

This is just so out of order- but being British, I can't be arsed to reply, honest however I'd just say your comment defo lacks Britishness. How can people complain about attitudes to Auslander in CH, then come up with this rubbish.
Carlos, I do indeed have the Burgundy little book - not had a Red once since the last one expired in 72.

Yeah, but that's the same here, isn't it? I don't think I've ever been introduced as, or referred to in my hearing as, an "Ausländerin". It's always "sie kommt aus Amerika" or "sie ist Amerikanerin."

I'm happy to share my opinion and experiences - no need to forget.

I don't think there is an obsession per se. Rather that there's no equivalent in English, so the word is going to stand out like a sore thumb when used in English(-language) conversation.

Don't get me wrong. I fully agree that Ausländer can be used in a matter of fact way and in a positive way. I just believe - based on anecdotes, what else? - that when used by the Swiss bureaucracy it is usually in a negative connotation, nevermind the high-profile SVP campaigns.

I should, at this point, repeat (as stated previously) that I very much enjoy my life here in CH, and I'm lucky 'cos I landed in Basel. But equally I accept that life is not a bed of roses for all expats here, precisely because they are "Ausländers".

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Never let right or wrong get in the way of a good opinion

i think it is also the frequency of use. after all, how often and regularly do you need to be told (and reminded) that you are a foreigner? in switzerland, it seems to be quite often. in the uk, not so much.

like i said, i don't consider myself to be particularly british

and i'm not complaining about the attitude to auslander in CH. but i admit to coming up with this rubbish