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Old 22.03.2011, 17:10
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Honestly, I hated that question. Every Tom, Dick and Harry asking that. WTF it's none of your business. Even though we never actually knew because we were in for a surprise, at a certain point I answered the question "And do you already know what it is" by saying "A human being, I suppose".
our answer was: "girl or boy we don't care. If it's a girl, we'll just make another baby"
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  #82  
Old 22.03.2011, 17:12
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Re: Getting pregnant

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are you sure your friends really want a baby? Because I've known quite a few people who have found it tough to get pregnant. They want it so badly that they would try anything if they thought it would work. They become real experts, and know everything there is to know about fertility.
No, I don't. And you're not allowed to call their bluff so have to continue playing the "suggestions on how to get pregnant" game.

But for those that do, sometimes people over-complicate things. In the case of pregnancy, they often do IMO. They are blinded by their "objective" and cannot see the wood for the trees and miss the blindingly obvious.

...how often have you heard this:

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What I found was that the more we were trying, the more disappointed we got. At a certain point I said "Oh, WTF, let's forget about it" and guess what happened.
...or that couples give up trying, adopt and a few years later #2 arrives "naturally".

You telling me that the pheromones released on adoption allowed the couple to have a second naturally, that something "changed"?

Again, I stress, this doesn't apply to those who have a genuine medical need.
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  #83  
Old 22.03.2011, 17:13
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Re: Getting pregnant

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What I found was that the more we were trying, the more disappointed we got. At a certain point I said " Oh, WTF, let's forget about it" and guess what happened.
And that's one of the most irritating pieces of advice you get when you have been trying for a looooooooong time. Latest advice I get now (even from people who supposedly know my situation but obviously were absent at the reproduction biology lesson) is, oooh now you have had a baby via IVF you'll just get pregnant naturally next time! They obviously forget the small matter of plumbing issues
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:18
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Re: Getting pregnant

Spare a thought for those couples with un explained infertility where they have been trying and trying for years, sex becomes a chore and not fun anymore. Couples who conceive quickly have no understanding of what it's like and how it affects your relationship. I am glad our infertility was something diagnosed eventually - I'd hate to have unexplained, how frustrating
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:19
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Re: Getting pregnant

Some friends of ours had had problems conceiving and went the IVF route; the 1st pregnancy was terminated due to a chromosome abnormality, the next terminated spontaneously, also due to a chromosome abnormality (btw the odds of 2 consecutive pregnancies with different chromosome abnormalities are extremely low). They decided to give the IVF a break for a bit, and what do know? She conceived naturally and subsequently gave birth to healthy baby boy.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:25
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Some friends of ours had had problems conceiving and went the IVF route; the 1st pregnancy was terminated due to a chromosome abnormality, the next terminated spontaneously, also due to a chromosome abnormality (btw the odds of 2 consecutive pregnancies with different chromosome abnormalities are extremely low). They decided to give the IVF a break for a bit, and what do know? She conceived naturally and subsequently gave birth to healthy baby boy.
Yes, these things happen, but not to too many people, The fact that it happens to you or someone you know makes you think "Oh, take the stress away and blablabla" but unfortunately, there are many couples where this doesn't apply.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:38
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Spare a thought for those couples with un explained infertility where they have been trying and trying for years, sex becomes a chore and not fun anymore.
To be honest: It is sad for them, but the couples I know were really quite as Carlos described in the initial post: If you were a chainsmoker for two decades starting in your early teens, drink two litres of coffee a day and stopped any form of sport as soon as your PE teacher could not force you anymore... well, I guess there is a price attached to it. They still run all type of medical tests to find out what I guessed from the beginning... and the doctor recommends to quit smoking and start working out. What a surprise...
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:41
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Re: Getting pregnant

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And that's one of the most irritating pieces of advice you get when you have been trying for a looooooooong time.

I haven't been there so I don't know but I do understand why being told to relax would be irritating and not very helpful. Of course being relaxed is a good thing and can only help but surely the people trying do know this? And I can't believe that the only people who conceive are those who are totally chilled out about it. How do you relax when you want something so badly? It's easy to tell someone to relax when you already have children yourself or you are not in the same situation. It's a bit like telling someone who is depressed to cheer up and they'll feel so much better.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:41
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Re: Getting pregnant

Of course we won't believe you unless you publish names and addresses of these people who cause your rant. You know how the EF works.

Cheers,
Nick

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I'm not implying anything.

I'm positively saying that some people (specifically the couples I know of who form the basis of my rant) just don't get it, and have no excuse not to.

They have failed to cover the basics before going on to seek medical advice for infertility.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:44
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Re: Getting pregnant

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To be honest: It is sad for them, but the couples I know were really quite as Carlos described in the initial post: If you were a chainsmoker for two decades starting in your early teens, drink two litres of coffee a day and stopped any form of sport as soon as your PE teacher could not force you anymore... well, I guess there is a price attached to it. They still run all type of medical tests to find out what I guessed from the beginning... and the doctor recommends to quit smoking and start working out. What a surprise...
You may be right, but in the olden days women used to smoke and drink cocktails even during pregnancy and "working out" wasn't even invented but they still had babies, so it can't be the only reason.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:46
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Re: Getting pregnant

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are you sure your friends really want a baby? Because I've known quite a few people who have found it tough to get pregnant. They want it so badly that they would try anything if they thought it would work. They become real experts, and know everything there is to know about fertility. Often they are the ones telling people who already have children how it all works!
We have friends like Carlos's. Desperate to get pregnant, exhausted from the stress of IVF treatment and yet, the woman in the relationship is really underweight (she eats like a sparrow) and chain-smokes.

They have other problems but surely that's more reason to remove the ones that you can do something about.
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:49
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Re: Getting pregnant

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You may be right, but in the olden days women used to smoke and drink cocktails even during pregnancy and "working out" wasn't even invented but they still had babies, so it can't be the only reason.
I was actually refering to the male part involved and the tests have shown that probably he is the main reason... and in the olden days men didn't need to work out, they had job for that - but that was long before the computer was invented
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Old 22.03.2011, 17:55
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Re: Getting pregnant

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I haven't been there so I don't know but I do understand why being told to relax would be irritating and not very helpful. Of course being relaxed is a good thing and can only help but surely the people trying do know this? And I can't believe that the only people who conceive are those who are totally chilled out about it. How do you relax when you want something so badly? It's easy to tell someone to relax when you already have children yourself or you are not in the same situation. It's a bit like telling someone who is depressed to cheer up and they'll feel so much better.
I've got some friends who tried for many years for their second child. Unfortunately age was not on the woman's side. In the end they gave up, accepted it would never happen, gave away all their baby stuff and chilled out and got on with life.
A year later they had a beautiful baby girl.
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:20
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Re: Getting pregnant

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(btw the odds of 2 consecutive pregnancies with different chromosome abnormalities are extremely low).
Im not sure that statement is factually correct. I have had five pregnancies end in miscarriage due to chromosonal abnormalities. It is very hard to diagnose and does come down to statistics and odds. The zygote is made up of a chromosonal pair (one from the female one from the male). We can have a "damaged" chromosone as one of our pairs without it having a visible impact. However if one of my damaged chromosones pairs with one of my husbands damaged chromosones the pregnancy will probabyl naturally terminate.

Thats a very vague brief highlevel description, but in short 2 consecutive pregnancies with different chromosome abnormalities can occur when one or both adults have damaged chromosones in their chromosone pairs.
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:22
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Re: Getting pregnant

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I've got some friends who tried for many years for their second child. Unfortunately age was not on the woman's side. In the end they gave up, accepted it would never happen, gave away all their baby stuff and chilled out and got on with life.
A year later they had a beautiful baby girl.
Happily ever after........

I know of many who would love that ending...
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:24
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Re: Getting pregnant

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I've got some friends who tried for many years for their second child. Unfortunately age was not on the woman's side. In the end they gave up, accepted it would never happen, gave away all their baby stuff and chilled out and got on with life.
A year later they had a beautiful baby girl.
These stories are lovely and very common, and I know people mean very well when they recall them but I believe people undergoing IVF/pregancy difficulties find them difficult to deal with after they have gone through disappointment after disappointment. (Not critizing you Tom - just taking this one as an example)
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:34
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Disclaimer: this is not addressed to those who have medical problems with respect to having babies. It is addressed to those who, IMO, really are borderline as to whether they should have them in the first place… If you have been trying for a baby and have failed due to health reasons or lost babies pre-term, and I know some of you have as per various threads and posts on EF, I apologise in advance for any offence or upset caused, but I really need to rant.

<rant>

What is it about educated couples wanting to have children that makes it so bloody hard?

As the parents of 3, we’ve had friends struggling to conceive ask us (or rather as per Nil’s thread, the Mrs has been asked, us men don’t discuss such matters) for advice. Poor them you might think, but then look at their lifestyles and consider the following:

1. The women under eat. Not just a little dieting here and there, but as in “put a normal plate of food in front of them and they play around with the food trying to hide it under the mash or cabbage leaf” type under eating. It helps if trying to get pregnant, if you’re not bordering on anorexic FFS. These people look perfectly normal and don’t need to diet. In one case the person in question needs to put some weight on – i.e. you’re 30+ not 13.

2. Sex. I hear the Mrs ask “have you been at it?” Answers range from:
Well we’re so tired…
Didn’t really feel like it, it wasn’t special…
I feel like a reproductive hen, it is so off-putting… - in this last case you really need to decide if having a baby is what you want

If by some miraculous chance, the answer is “yes we did”, the next question is “how often and when”, answers range from once to errr… once… and usually at a completely inappropriate time.

Aarrrghh! Just literally f**k off. Literally. Go do it! Lots and lots. It isn’t like a one shot take a pill and be done with it wonder, while conversely you only get one chance a month. These are educated people we’re talking about. Given the birth rates amongst lower social tiers, it doesn’t take much to get pregnant, just base desires.

3. Having a relationship – off-hand comments and jokes like “we have to book ahead to see each other” usually have a grain of truth in them. If you don’t see your other half except at weekends and the female half’s cycle doesn’t match up, you guessed it, nothing's gonna happen!

4. Women’s cycle – and here I going into realms of the unknown – but really if you are serious about it, you need to work out when it’s all optimal. I’m not talking pseudo-science here, nor phases of the moon or best positions. Here’s a simple tip: get a product like the contraceptive kit Persona and use it inversely. No really, it isn’t rocket science.

These people then spend a fortune on getting help from the NHS, using valuable time and money that could be used to save lives, clutching at the hope that really it isn’t their fault but there’s a problem that can be fixed. It is part of the greater malaise the inflicts modern (Western) society. Take responsibility for your actions and their consequences (or lack thereof).

I honestly don’t know if this is already happening, but from what I hear it isn’t, but Drs/GPs who have couples wanting children should ask them to complete a 6-month diary of when/how often they are having sex. Only once they passed this simple “you’re doing it enough” test, should they be put forward for further support.
.
Its very easy to write such a simplistic solution to what is a very sensitive topic when you have children already so can speak without having gone through the experience. In theory, the world's issue are easy to solve:

Not pregnant ? Have more sex.
Fat ? eat less you fat bastard.
no job ? get a job you lazy get.
no girlfriend ? go and ask a girl out you idiot.

None of which take the emotional context of the issues into account.

Disclaimers like "I don't mean this to offend but..." do little to help people who genuinely struggle in this most delicate of areas and will read this with a heavy heart.

Perhaps your prospective couple who only get to do it at the weekend need to support themselves financially and work in poorly paid jobs for example. Then a Daily Mail "well stop working as hard and get down to it" solution isnt quite as easy if your on the hard end of 12 hour days of manual labour.

There are a lot of things which annoy people in life, all of which have very simple logical solutions when looked at from the blue sky of science only, however criticising people for not having children that they apparantly want is not, in my humble opinion, something that should be done - by anyone - because it is an intensly personal matter and there will be reasons, deep inside, that the couple perhaps only do it at weekends or dont find their sex exciting any more - but they certainly dont want to share them with some preaching father of three who strolls around extolling the way to it from their perspective.
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:40
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Re: Getting pregnant

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These stories are lovely and very common, and I know people mean very well when they recall them but I believe people undergoing IVF/pregancy difficulties find them difficult to deal with after they have gone through disappointment after disappointment. (Not critizing you Tom - just taking this one as an example)
Personally, I am not "meaning well". I don't mean this to be rude, but my gripe remains people wasting resources when actually they didn't need to.

Some stats I've just dug up (from here):

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The scale of fertility problems
It is estimated that one in seven UK couples have difficulty conceiving –approximately 3.5 million people. Though the majority of these will become pregnant naturally given time, a significant minority will not.
Of 100 couples trying to conceive naturally
20 will conceive within one month
70 will conceive within six months
85 will conceive within a year
90 will conceive within 18 months
95 will conceive within two years
The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) define infertility as failing to get pregnant after a two years of regular unprotected sex.
Infertility is the commonest reason for women aged 20-45 to see their GP, after pregnancy itself.
Treatment and success
The average success rate for IVF treatment using fresh eggs in the UK is
28.2% (for women under 35);
23.6% (for women aged 35-37)
18.3% (for women aged 38-39)
10.6% (for women aged 40-42)
The average success rate for Donor Insemination treatment in the UK is
14.1% (for women under 35);
8.3% (for women aged 35-39)
4.9% (for women aged 40-42)
If you were to take out those people who need to take the blinkers off, you'd probably find that IVF treatment is even less successful than the rates above (albeit data reported in 2006/7, reporting data from 2003/4). That aside, the point I am trying to make is that 95% of people will conceive naturally anyway if given enough time and if they sort themselves out.
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:46
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Its very easy to write such a simplistic solution to what is a very sensitive topic when you have children already so can speak without having gone through the experience. <snip - no pun intended>
So what do you suggest we say to those who ask us (me and the Mrs that is)?
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Old 22.03.2011, 18:48
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Re: Getting pregnant

Getting pregnant is a lottery. For some it will happen even if they're not trying, a little accident. Others will get pregnant quite soon after deciding to try, for some it will take much longer. Others may need medical help. For some people it will never happen. Some people will do all the right things and it still won't happen. And some will do all the wrong things and still get pregnant (just think of the contestants on Jeremy Kyle ).

Of course there are things people can do to improve their chances. But it doesn't help to think that if only she did this or he didn't do that then they would have no problem. It's always so simple when you look in on someone else's life. I find it hard to believe that there are people who are really wanting to get pregnant and are not doing everything they can to make it happen. If you do know people where this is the case and they ask you for advice then suggest constructive things that might help and be supportive. All I can do is listen to my friends and be there when they need to vent or have a cry. I think the worst thing you can do is assume that you know where they're going wrong, it might not be that simple.
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