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  #141  
Old 23.03.2011, 22:34
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Re: Getting pregnant

People wanting to conceive should get the book, "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" by Toni Weschler. We used the Fertility Awareness Method as birth control for 7 years and then, when we were ready for a baby, got pregnant on our first try! In all honesty, I did not expect that! But here we are in week 14 and it's wonderful!
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  #142  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:09
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Re: Getting pregnant

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It's these comments that irk me. Many many women fall pregnant whether they are under weight, over weight, smoke, drink, take drugs etc... Give your mates a break they are still unable to achieve what another couple can regardless of their health and lifestyle choices
We did never did need to give them a break - we never mentioned it to them. Not once.

You're right - there are loads of factors that play a part and women get pregnant in spite of an unhealthy lifestyle.

But, when there are lots of other factors stacked against you, surely it would make sense to maximise your chances - especially with eight costly years of IVF and all the heart-ache that goes with that?
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  #143  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:46
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Hi Carlos,
You need to grab hold of your hair and pull your head firmly out of your arse. That is the most insesitive post I have ever seen. well done on your 3 kids mate but it is not so easy for others. Rant as much as you like but making babies is NOT THAT EASY. I have 2 boys after 3 unsucsessful IVF tries ( on the Norwegian Health System) not your NHS. Mate do a little research before you piss off the world.
Cheers B
Clearly you needed the support of IVF. Good for you, and I'm happy that you have been blessed with children, and I'm sorry that I've upset you and anyone you care about. My wife does tell me that empathy isn't my forte.

Although I'd like to take your advice on board, I'll maintain my line that some people just don't help themselves. As Tom and others have said, the general cluenessless of these friends about this topic is the most striking thing to me, the simple things they could try and the simple things they could do.

Whether that's a conscious (i.e. don't really want children) or subconscious (i.e. aren't ready for children) thing, I don't know. But, at the same time, I can only go by what they are telling us.

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...I was also more chilled out (advice often bandied around also) ...
Indeed, always easy to say "just relax" as a third party. But at the same time, you had a clear situation where having a child would be difficult due to a pre-existing medical condition. I would indeed hope, as insensitive bloke as I am, that your friends were not judging you.

As a general comment, I would hasten to add - there've been several comments on this in the thread - that contrary to whatever you may think, neither I nor my wife have offered any advice or opinion when it has not specifically been asked for. We have also not gone down the "you bloody idiots..." route.
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  #144  
Old 23.03.2011, 23:56
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Re: Getting pregnant

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We have also not gone down the "you bloody idiots..." route.
However going on your initial post, this what you must have been thinking, which speaks infinitely more about how little you understand the experience of having difficulty conceiving.
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  #145  
Old 24.03.2011, 00:13
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Re: Getting pregnant

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However going on your initial post, this what you must have been thinking, which speaks infinitely more about how little you understand the experience of having difficulty conceiving.
Doubtless it does.

It doesn't take away from the fact - as evidenced here - that many people go to great lengths and through an emotional rollercoaster that I genuinely wouldn't want to wish on any would-be parent, to try and get pregnant and still need the help of Drs.

Yet, I just don't see the people I am refering too making these decisions to take control, even though they say they want to have a child. As I specifically said, it is tempting in one's mind's eye to imagine giving them a good dressing down and telling them to sort out the basics before thinking they have fertility "issues" and using the NHS's limited resources.*

* Don't tell me you've never imagined doing that to someone somewhere in your own life. And if you haven't, then feel free to claim the moral highground.
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  #146  
Old 24.03.2011, 00:36
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Yet, I just don't see the people I am refering too making these decisions to take control, even though they say they want to have a child. As I specifically said, it is tempting in one's mind's eye to imagine giving them a good dressing down and telling them to sort out the basics before thinking they have fertility "issues" and using the NHS's limited resources.*

* Don't tell me you've never imagined doing that to someone somewhere in your own life. And if you haven't, then feel free to claim the moral highground.
So your gripe really is the strain on the NHS. If your friends were paying private in the UK or elsewhere then they can just get on with trying to make babies (badly)
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  #147  
Old 24.03.2011, 08:25
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Re: Getting pregnant

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Doubtless it does.

It doesn't take away from the fact - as evidenced here - that many people go to great lengths and through an emotional rollercoaster that I genuinely wouldn't want to wish on any would-be parent, to try and get pregnant and still need the help of Drs.

Yet, I just don't see the people I am refering too making these decisions to take control, even though they say they want to have a child. As I specifically said, it is tempting in one's mind's eye to imagine giving them a good dressing down and telling them to sort out the basics before thinking they have fertility "issues" and using the NHS's limited resources.*

* Don't tell me you've never imagined doing that to someone somewhere in your own life. And if you haven't, then feel free to claim the moral highground.
What I see evidenced here is that the people who have responded who have experienced difficulty in conceiving find your view offensive and hurtful, while people who have successfully become pregnant quickly or not experienced such difficulties have more moderate views. Unfortunately your too blind to even see something as glaring as this.

Clearly you have absolutely no idea about the whole thing. Your argument has now subtley moved from "I hate whingers who cant have babies without trying my 10 point plan" to "I don't mean offence but its the NHS you see, I care about the NHS". So what happens when you can't have babies then Carlos ? When you have come home from work for another month to find your wife in tears because the sticks show negative again, experience the shattering disappointment of another month of failure, but because you don't know whether its you, or her, or us, our our technique, or are we just unlucky, you try to work out whether to carry on for another one or go and ask for some help. If you do decide to go and ask the Doctor, what actually happens ?

Are you sent off to the Fertitility clinic for some egg donation ? Im not sure you are, you know. I think your Doctor will in fact tell you the advice that you are so happily handing out to your friends behind a mask of comtempt. Only after this, after initial blood tests, after sperm counts and health analysis, only then does the costly stuff even appear on the horizon.

Between 2007 and 2008 6.5 million appointments were missed on the NHS. it cost about 600 million pounds (http://www.hc2d.co.uk/content.php?contentId=12409) . Do you have any idea of this cost in proportion to people who visited their doctor to ask for pregnancy advice that they might not have realiszed they could find from a friend ? And yet, under a much more sensible NHS program you would ensure that until you'd followed the Carlos Baby Checklist your Doctor would simply ignore you for 6 months until you'd completed Our Diary Of Trying To Have A Baby. Nice one. Great plan there.

Under the same "Sensible actions first" motif, can you tell me if fat people would get stomach stapling operations or Knee replacements ? Would smokers get cancer advice or treatment until they stopped smoking ? Because as I understood the NHS, it fortunately takes the emotional context into account, and does not work in the coldly scientific approach you take to things, meaning these people will get the help they need.

I agree with the earlier poster who told you to get your head out your backside. "Don't mean to offend" is not the same as "Doesn't Offend" and your arrogant, strutting, middle-class-dinner-discussion braying on the difficulties of fertility from someone who has had none does offend. A lot.

I am not 'taking the moral high ground' I am simply not stooping as low as you are.

Last edited by Mikers; 24.03.2011 at 08:41. Reason: typos
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  #148  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:01
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Re: Getting pregnant

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So your gripe really is the strain on the NHS. If your friends were paying private in the UK or elsewhere then they can just get on with trying to make babies (badly)
My main gripe, yes, but also that these people talk the walk but don't walk the walk, as it were.
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Old 24.03.2011, 09:01
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Re: Getting pregnant

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My wife does tell me that empathy isn't my forte.


.
Have noticed.... must be your scientific background and priviledged upbringing
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  #150  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:19
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Re: Getting pregnant

http://infertility.about.com/od/copi..._week_wait.htm


i think this is helpful for those obsessing/trying to conceive
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  #151  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:24
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Re: Getting pregnant

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People wanting to conceive should get the book, "Taking Charge of Your Fertility" by Toni Weschler. ...
I recommend "Inconceivable" by Ben Elton. It'll take your mind off your worries and give you a good laugh. Try to work out which parts are autobiographical.
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  #152  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:35
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Re: Getting pregnant

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I think this is helpful for those obsessing/trying to conceive
If you are in the "normal category" then yes perhaps... "schedule in some more tennis and get your mind off of it". Seriously come on. Having a child when it is not working is an obsession and is only about having a child. Unless you have been the process you have no idea alone how invasive all the medical procedures are, the time needed to always be in labs and lets be honest- it is physically painful too.

Back to Carlos's friends- maybe they really don't want children.
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  #153  
Old 24.03.2011, 09:57
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Re: Getting pregnant

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http://infertility.about.com/od/copi..._week_wait.htm


i think this is helpful for those obsessing/trying to conceive

I think Carlos's friends have failed at tip 4 "Get support from people who understand".
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  #154  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:08
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Re: Getting pregnant

@ MikeB and others who've I've caused (more) hurt and/or offence, then I do apologise.

I feel that I have to clarify:

1) I never mentioned I hated anyone AFAIK. I expressed frustration.

2) I don't feel I've subtly changed my view - from the very first post I mentioned the resource waste. However the context was pregnancy, not missed appointments or the recent debacle over the NHS's IT infrastructure.

3) I have never, nor would I ever, deny medical treatment/support where it is needed (not that this is in my power anyway). As an aside it is worth noting that smokers more than pay for the NHS and joint replacements have generally been shown to be cost effective. Gastric stapling, well that's a topic for another thread.

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Have noticed.... must be your scientific background and priviledged upbringing


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Back to Carlos's friends - maybe they really don't want children.
Maybe. In one case, I'm pretty sure one of the people involved doesn't (even if though they won't admit it to themselves...).
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  #155  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:13
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Re: Getting pregnant

OK I think must have missed some posts, as reading this thread left me wondering - if your friends are asking for advice and you could give it, why don't you? (This in case they are really asking and not just looking for a change to moan and vent, your wife will know the difference. In case of moaning, I'm afraid your only option is to pat them on the shoulder and go "there-there". Annoying as this might be, this is what friends do).

But back to topic - If you are convinced it's their weight, it's also ok to point out that according to research, getting pregnant is easier if you are within a healthy weight range. As seen on this thread, some people might not be aware that this is an influencing factor.

As for the other 3 issues in the OP, what's the point of asking how often do they see each other or how often, when and in what positions they are doing it? They might cuddle up every night and be at it like rabbits at any other time, but you know and I know that the sperm and egg need to meet, therefore "how often, wink wink, nudge nudge" does not make any difference if they are not doing it at the right time. If they are indeed clueless, a question like "So what kind of fertility monitor/ovulation test are you using?" would be helpful if they are not aware that such things exist.

So if you are really convinced that they are wasting NHS money and this is all they need to know..tell them? Why not?
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  #156  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:13
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Re: Getting pregnant

I was going to say is this becoming a last word competition, but in fact, in summary, its an impossible thread for the simple reason that objectivity can only really come from those successful parents and emotional response can only come from those that havent been successful.
Belive me, I understand the hurt that apparent non comprehension can have. Noone wants to be told its their own fault when they are trying about 3000 fold more than those that have not had problems. nuff said.
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  #157  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:15
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Re: Getting pregnant

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If you are in the "normal category" then yes perhaps... "schedule in some more tennis and get your mind off of it". Seriously come on. Having a child when it is not working is an obsession and is only about having a child. Unless you have been the process you have no idea alone how invasive all the medical procedures are, the time needed to always be in labs and lets be honest- it is physically painful too.

Back to Carlos's friends- maybe they really don't want children.

Its for the readers who are in the "normal category" or who think thay are (even after years of trying). But all women who are trying to conceive go through these "2 week waits" every single month which is quite painful as well. Im on it as of the moment.
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Old 24.03.2011, 10:15
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Re: Getting pregnant

All I can say re Carlos's friends is if they are going through fertility treatment then they must be serious about wanting kids (it's NOT a walk in the park physically and emotionally) I do not think any sane person would choose this route if they didn't really want kids. Re this womans weight and coffee obsession, well I could easily assume thats due to stress and nerves, vicious circle really, unable to conceive and going through traumatic fertility treatment on top of giving up ones vices that help with the stress and nerves and the stress and nerves keeping you thin (wish the stress and nerves kept me thin )

Anyway for me, no hard feelings to Carlos - he has a view and opinion of a situation that he really has no idea about and thank fully many people don't know what infertility is like - hopefully these responses on here will help him understand and his wife may even thank us for restoring his empathy
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  #159  
Old 24.03.2011, 10:18
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Re: Getting pregnant

Let me ask you something people who are shooting the messenger...

1- You have a friend who eat a lot. All crappy food, soda, huge portion, nothing fresh and all processed food. The person is sitting on the couch all day long eating.

The person has morbid obesity... Actions must be taken now. Reducing portions, change of the food intake, stop processing food and eat fresh food. Drink water no sodas, etc. And begin slowly to do some light physical activity to get to move more and more.

Would you support that person? Of course!

2-Now imagine that person refuse to change the life style and just rely on medical help by wanting to get a gastric band. Thinkind it will resolve all the problems...

Would you support that person? I wouldn't.

Now lets go back to the Op's topic:

3-We have a couple who smoke, under eat, don't do any exercises and are not consistant in the baby making training sessions. The woman doesn't know when she is at her most fertile point in the month, she doesn't eat enough to allow her body to be physicallt capable to conceive and have a life style who make things even more difficult.

They want medical help, would you support it? Or would you believe they should sit down and do a reality check of what they are doing wrong first?

4-Now let imagine this couple who tried EVERYTHING like the majority of infertile couples. They tried the calendar, the temperature, to stand, to lay down, to do it 5 times a day for 2 weeks before-during-after the ovulation period, eat healthy, go to bed early to have enough sleep, quit smoking, drinking, etc...

They want medical help, would you support it? Knowing they did EVERYTHING without success? I would!!

I am not emotionally attached to the subject like some of you are, for obvious reasons I mentioned earlier. But I do feel very strongly for all of you who did everything and couldn't conceive. Carlos feels the same too. He told us already. Yes maybe the opening topic didn't came out quite right but he did explained himself better and he doesn't talk about all the couples who can't conceive but about the couple I gave exemple no 3.

It is an extreme case like someone who eats load of crap and tells you in the same time to not be able to lose weight...

Getting pregnant, as you know is not as easy at it can be, it needs commitment and hard work for many couples. You know it better than I would never be able to imagine.
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Old 24.03.2011, 10:22
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Re: Getting pregnant

If I want to win the lottery, I've got to do step 1 - buy a ticket. If my wife and I want to make a baby, we've got to do step 1 - regular, frequent unprotected sex. With each other.

If Carlos's friends really aren't doing step 1, then he is right - they're wasting their time getting infertility treatment. But it is hard for people to accept that perhaps, just possibly, the fault lies with them. With their lifestyle. So, I can understand that. But it doesn't evoke much sympathy.

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... its an impossible thread for the simple reason that objectivity can only really come from those successful parents and emotional response can only come from those that havent been successful. ...
I don't agree with that, because there are successful parents, who lived with lack of success for many years. My sister and her hubby went through the whole gamut - though balked at IVF. They accepted that becoming parents was unlikely. Three years later, my nephew came along. They'd be well qualified to give both points of view, because they've been there.
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