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  #41  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:13
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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That was the 30km/h zone. Pedestrians have priority and the driver should assume the worst - that the kid will try to cross. Not a big problem to stop while driving 30km/h. Wave to the kid to cross - if he declines then go.
That can also be dangerous. The fact that you've spotted the kid, doesn't mean other motorists have. It can also mean that the pedestrian relies on your observational skills instead of their own - splat.

I've encountered older people who've tried to wave me on when I've stopped for them to cross. I put the handbrake on, and fold me arms, and wait.

I do have sympathy with the OP. He wasn't actually driving dangerously - just not according to the rules.
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Old 07.04.2011, 13:14
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

As the demonic driver of the car in question giving Starald the lift home, I accepted the fine graciously and offered up my brand new CH drivers licence, car owners document and insurance. Speaking, in my broken (I have been trying to learn, before anyone feels the need to mention my ignorance in this field) as the policeman in question was not able to speak English, so I got issued a warning in German which I am none the clearer on.

Following on from the stop and fine, I have learnt the following:
1. I was glad to have a CH licence as I am sure the fine would have been worse if it had been a UK licence (judging by previous posts on the EF.).
2. Having already told my wife to avoid the route as there is a very steep incline on which I feared she could destroy the clutch. I may also choose not to got this way in future.
3. I look forward to the day when a police car is tail gating me through town and I will be sure to slam on the brakes to test their readiness and adherence to the rules when I see someone who could be construed as attempting to use a crossing, or just stood in the vicinity, if there is contact I shall exit my car brandishing my fine and test their insurance.
4. When it snows and the roads have a lovely covering of white stuff, all bets are off!

I would like to make it very clear that I am glad that I did not mount the kerb to hit the child in question (a slight slap for being an informant at such a young age might not have been out the question), in fact I am thankful that I have never (and hope I ever will!) hit a pedestrian. I do have a motorbike to sell and as per the earlier post by Mirfield, I will view all children as potential police informants.
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  #43  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:22
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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As the demonic driver of the car in question giving Starald the lift home, I accepted the fine graciously and offered up my brand new CH drivers licence, car owners document and insurance. Speaking, in my broken (I have been trying to learn, before anyone feels the need to mention my ignorance in this field) as the policeman in question was not able to speak English, so I got issued a warning in German which I am none the clearer on.

Following on from the stop and fine, I have learnt the following:
1. I was glad to have a CH licence as I am sure the fine would have been worse if it had been a UK licence (judging by previous posts on the EF.).
2. Having already told my wife to avoid the route as there is a very steep incline on which I feared she could destroy the clutch. I may also choose not to got this way in future.
3. I look forward to the day when a police car is tail gating me through town and I will be sure to slam on the brakes to test their readiness and adherence to the rules when I see someone who could be construed as attempting to use a crossing, or just stood in the vicinity, if there is contact I shall exit my car brandishing my fine and test their insurance.
4. When it snows and the roads have a lovely covering of white stuff, all bets are off!

I would like to make it very clear that I am glad that I did not mount the kerb to hit the child in question (a slight slap for being an informant at such a young age might not have been out the question), in fact I am thankful that I have never (and hope I ever will!) hit a pedestrian. I do have a motorbike to sell and as per the earlier post by Mirfield, I will view all children as potential police informants.
The most important lessoned learned so far: Do not rant about traffic police on the English Forum. Here everyone is holier than you and you are killing kittens by driving a car at all.

The last road report of Switzerland has shown a clear increase in pedestrians being the victim of accidents. However, the report was very clear on two points:
- The severe or fatal accidents nearly never happened at zebra crossings, but at unclear spots where pedestrians decided to cross.
- In most fatal cases was either the pedestrian or the driver on the phone, listening to music with headphones or otherwise distracted...

Back to you: Follow the rules you bloody rowdy!
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  #44  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:34
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Here everyone is holier than you and you are killing kittens by driving a car at all.


Many times I've been a passenger in the vehicle which my m-i-l was driving, to have her slam on the breaks to stop for someone to cross. The mounting motion sickness has stamped it pretty clearly in my brain that one STOPS at the crossing if there is someone present - it doesn't matter what you THINK they're going to do.

I'd think that no matter where you learn to drive, we're all taught that the proper attitude while behind the wheel is to be a "defensive" driver... Behave as if the others on or near the road will do something other than what you expect them to do and you should carry on fine. (As well as save the insides of your car from being the "victim" of a motion sick passenger.)
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  #45  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:34
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Surely a certain level of common sense should be allowed when evaluating the best course of action, rather than blindly adhering to unbendable rules?
In Switzerland?



Joking aside, I looked it up: drivers have to yield the right of way (i.e. reduce speed and potentially come to a full stop) if someone "is already on the crossing or is waiting in front of it and apparently wishes to cross." The pedestrian does not have to signal intent in any particular way (by making hand signals, looking in a particular direction, etc.) although he must not enter the crossing "unexpectedly" or when cars are too close to stop.

Hand signals used to be required but they are not any more - haven't been since 1994. The investigating commission found that 80% of pedestrians didn't use them anyway, so they really only served as a get-out-of-jail-free card for drivers who hit someone on a zebra crossing. In other news, 80% of Swiss pedestrians are also cyclists.



Nor does it matter whether or not the pedestrian was actually endangered at any point. It's strictly a right-of-way issue: you were supposed to yield the right of way and you didn't. Of course you can argue that the kid's "wish to cross" was not all that "apparent" to you, but I suspect you are only wasting your time as they will counter that it should have been apparent and you must not have been looking to miss it.

Bottom line: reading pedestrians' minds is an essential driving skill, in Switzerland or anywhere else. If you ain't got it, you better fake it.
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  #46  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:45
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The most important lessoned learned so far: Do not rant about traffic police on the English Forum. Here everyone is holier than you and you are killing kittens by driving a car at all.



I hereby promise to fit something very large, soft and fluffy to the front of my car as well as a second catalytic converter to elliminate all pollution so that i never run the risk of killing a kitten regardless of how careless I might be.
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  #47  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:45
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

The question is:

- was the kid intending to jay walk, or just having problems lighting one, pausing because the breeze kept blowing out his matches?
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Old 07.04.2011, 13:51
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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...and apparently wishes to cross.
..and here lies the core of the initial post and following discussion; the reason i feel the police have been a tad overzealous.
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  #49  
Old 07.04.2011, 13:51
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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In any other country I have lived in, this behavior would be considered a clear case of entrapment, and would be illegal for the police to conduct.
Is this really an acceptable method of work for the Swiss police?
You obviously don't understand the definition of entrapment (or "agent provocateur" as it's legally referred to in non-american courts). Provocation is the test: the police must actually do something to suggest, inspire, or provoke you to commit an offence.

Example: If an undercover cop is standing around "looking" like a drug dealer, and someone approaches him asking for drugs, it is NOT entrapment as the police have acted completely passively.
However, if the undercover cop was to ask the person "do you want to buy drugs?", then that is entrapment as the police could have inspired the desire to purchase drugs.

If the child waved the car to continue, and the police issued a fine, then you may have an argument.

Entrapment does not usually apply to traffic offences, as they are usually strict liability (the act itself constitutes the offence, the intention or not is no defence).
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Old 07.04.2011, 13:52
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Don't get me started on the behaviour of the cats in CH, they have no fear and just dash out with out any respect for my right of way of my automotive mode of transportation.

I have learnt some other important lessons from this episode:
- Giving Starald a lift home has meant that my criminal ways have now been broadcast across the English Forum and I have only just arrived in CH!
- Who'd have thought driving a Skoda would be controversial.
- Finally I am at a loss as to why the hand singles were banished in 1994, as I would be sure to stop if the kid had been giving me the finger.

In any event I am 140 CHF worse off, but have learnt my lesson and appear to be a bit wiser on the laws of road.
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  #51  
Old 07.04.2011, 14:02
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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In Switzerland?



Joking aside, I looked it up: drivers have to yield the right of way (i.e. reduce speed and potentially come to a full stop) if someone "is already on the crossing or is waiting in front of it and apparently wishes to cross." The pedestrian does not have to signal intent in any particular way (by making hand signals, looking in a particular direction, etc.) although he must not enter the crossing "unexpectedly" or when cars are too close to stop.

Hand signals used to be required but they are not any more - haven't been since 1994. The investigating commission found that 80% of pedestrians didn't use them anyway, so they really only served as a get-out-of-jail-free card for drivers who hit someone on a zebra crossing. In other news, 80% of Swiss pedestrians are also cyclists.



Nor does it matter whether or not the pedestrian was actually endangered at any point. It's strictly a right-of-way issue: you were supposed to yield the right of way and you didn't. Of course you can argue that the kid's "wish to cross" was not all that "apparent" to you, but I suspect you are only wasting your time as they will counter that it should have been apparent and you must not have been looking to miss it.

Bottom line: reading pedestrians' minds is an essential driving skill, in Switzerland or anywhere else. If you ain't got it, you better fake it.
Thanks for finding the appropriate info, MN - I searched but couldn't find anything definitive re. pedestrian crossings rights of way, other than info pertaining to the '94 hand signal legislation:

http://www.bfu.ch/PDFLib/422_68.pdf

I think it's similar to what @Snoopy provided earlier, but in English.

Probably with the exception of 30kph zones, the actual legal right of way for pedestrian crossings, is still very much a grey area for all road users - hence the higher proportion of accidents.
Even Swiss people (according to my wife), still don't seem to fully understand - joggers just keep on running, expecting all vehicles to immediately stop; oldies wont cross until the street is completely clear of all moving traffic, or all vehicles have stopped with at least 3 in a queue in both directions; and unfortunately kids inhabit the middle ground and both ends of the spectrum in this example.

All my wife tells me, is that the same strict rights of way for those wishing to cross, don't exist here, as strictly as they do in the UK.
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Old 07.04.2011, 15:11
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The most important lessoned learned so far: Do not rant about traffic police on the English Forum. Here everyone is holier than you and you are killing kittens by driving a car at all.
Does that mean that the expats here are taking their Swissification lessons very seriously?
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  #53  
Old 07.04.2011, 16:04
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The most important lessoned learned so far: Do not rant about traffic police on the English Forum.
The fact that people here side with them says a lot in favour of the conduct of the Swiss traffic police.

I haven't seen any posts from people here saying that they were stopped for a traffic misdemeanour but the charge was dropped after they slipped the policeman a 50CHF note, no questions asked.

Or, in the case of my wife in the U.K., where the Policeman gave a false name.
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:19
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The fact that people here side with them says a lot in favour of the conduct of the Swiss traffic police.
No, not really. It just fits into the past 500 or so car/driving related threads on here. I think it is quite normal that traffic fines are a big question-mark when you move to a new country. Standards on what is tolerated differ massively from country to country and it is completely normal that a newly arrived person does something "wrong". Simple example: The German police is far more tolerant when it comes to speed and the cameras will not even make a picture if you are just ten over. On the other hand does the German highway patrol enforce quite strictly that you do drive on the right on a highway and keep the safety distance. Two things I have never ever seen on a Swiss Autobahn.

Whenever somebody complains about harsh fees - and Swiss fees are VERY high compared to pretty much anywhere - there is a bunch of user jumping at him. In this example: It is completely possible to manage the situation safely, look at the kid, reduce speed to a minimum, drive on when it doesn't move at all - and still get a fine because you didn't break to a complete stand-still. Yes, I am so honest to admit it could have easily happened to me - although I really take care at crossings - so I do not bitch at the OP.

I lived in Zurich-Altstetten for several years and as a pedestrian have been multiple times nearly run over by Swiss drivers on Badener Strasse who did not even break the slightest while I showed the clear intention to cross. I cannot agree to the many claims that Swiss are super strict when it comes to zebra crossings: I see both drivers as well as pedestrians behaving like comeplete idiots there on a daily basis. I can even say which places are worst: Zebra crossing at the Tramstop Lindenplatz, zebra crossing in Hohlstrasse next to Letzipark...

I have never seen or heard about a police check the way the OP described it. I find it a completely valid question to ask (while it is clearly not entrapment... but anyway).
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:29
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The fact that people here side with them says a lot in favour of the conduct of the Swiss traffic police.
Or the weight of the offence 'fessed up by the forum member usually makes one see the point of view of the police...

"I was caught overtaking at 240 km/h by some knobhead cop with nothing better to do. Stooopid Swiss!"
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:30
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Must bicyclists also stop?
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:32
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Must bicyclists also stop?
Absolutely. Why not? And they are not allowed to cycle "as pedestrians" accross the zebra strip. They'd have to get off the bike and push it. Ever seen that? Me neither.
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:43
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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No, not really. It just fits into the past 500 or so car/driving related threads on here. I think it is quite normal that traffic fines are a big question-mark when you move to a new country. Standards on what is tolerated differ massively from country to country and it is completely normal that a newly arrived person does something "wrong". Simple example: The German police is far more tolerant when it comes to speed and the cameras will not even make a picture if you are just ten over. On the other hand does the German highway patrol enforce quite strictly that you do drive on the right on a highway and keep the safety distance. Two things I have never ever seen on a Swiss Autobahn.

Whenever somebody complains about harsh fees - and Swiss fees are VERY high compared to pretty much anywhere - there is a bunch of user jumping at him. In this example: It is completely possible to manage the situation safely, look at the kid, reduce speed to a minimum, drive on when it doesn't move at all - and still get a fine because you didn't break to a complete stand-still. Yes, I am so honest to admit it could have easily happened to me - although I really take care at crossings - so I do not bitch at the OP.

I lived in Zurich-Altstetten for several years and as a pedestrian have been multiple times nearly run over by Swiss drivers on Badener Strasse who did not even break the slightest while I showed the clear intention to cross. I cannot agree to the many claims that Swiss are super strict when it comes to zebra crossings: I see both drivers as well as pedestrians behaving like comeplete idiots there on a daily basis. I can even say which places are worst: Zebra crossing at the Tramstop Lindenplatz, zebra crossing in Hohlstrasse next to Letzipark...

I have never seen or heard about a police check the way the OP described it. I find it a completely valid question to ask (while it is clearly not entrapment... but anyway).
A Swiss friend of mine has a dad who is a retired driving instructor and he always says, it may well be true that some of the rules may have been invented specifically to catch you out, and there are rules that nobody respects but you can still get done for them, but you always have 100 Franks in your pocket and there are more stupid things you could be spending it on so take it like a man and pay up and move on.
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:44
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Absolutely. Why not? And they are not allowed to cycle "as pedestrians" accross the zebra strip. They'd have to get off the bike and push it. Ever seen that? Me neither.
You've never seen me cycle then.
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Old 07.04.2011, 16:46
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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On the other hand does the German highway patrol enforce quite strictly that you do drive on the right on a highway and keep the safety distance. Two things I have never ever seen on a Swiss Autobahn.
There's talk of introducing cameras here that measure tail-gating distance (as well as speed).
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