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  #81  
Old 07.04.2011, 22:08
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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We need more dipshit-seeking missles. Sure, the first few will be a bit messy and raise some eyebrows but the deterrent effect of a missile battery locking onto your car will be worth it.
I am not into SUVs, but there are days where I could go all Heckler&Koch about the idiot in front of me...

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Old 07.04.2011, 22:18
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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...and you think a SatNav/Sats will suggest to stay at home ?
It will redirect to one that isn't in a gridlock. Whatever it chooses, it will be an informed optimized route.
You mean optimized by computers? Thanks for the warning.
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  #83  
Old 07.04.2011, 22:36
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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You mean optimized by computers? Thanks for the warning.
It's O.K.! Skynet hasn't gone self aware yet.
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  #84  
Old 07.04.2011, 23:43
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The fine is for not stopping.
Cars that did not stop deserved to be fined.
If a pedestrian is at the crossing, stop. There should be no exceptions to this rule for the sake of clarity.

I doubt the Police were bored, it looks to me that they may have received complaints about this particular crossing, and ended up catching the guilty. Lesson learnt by the caught, before someome gets run over.
Nonsense! Good police officers in any country understand that good, safe driving is about mature judgement calls not about following the rules. That's why, whatever your age, your insurance will never be more expensive than the day after you successfully pass you driving test (after successfully remembering all the rules). If you're watching a child walk down the street, stop near a crossing to do up their shoe laces, you can continue driving, being reasonably certain that it's a tough ask for a child to get up and dart into the road. Conversely, if children are playing with a ball no where near a crossing, the proper thing to do is to slow to a crawl, knowing that if the ball shoots into the road, a child may unthinkingly follow it.

It seems that these police were filling a quota or unthinkingly reacting to a complaint.
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  #85  
Old 08.04.2011, 06:36
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Nonsense! Good police officers in any country understand that good, safe driving is about mature judgement calls not about following the rules. That's why, whatever your age, your insurance will never be more expensive than the day after you successfully pass you driving test (after successfully remembering all the rules). If you're watching a child walk down the street, stop near a crossing to do up their shoe laces, you can continue driving, being reasonably certain that it's a tough ask for a child to get up and dart into the road. Conversely, if children are playing with a ball no where near a crossing, the proper thing to do is to slow to a crawl, knowing that if the ball shoots into the road, a child may unthinkingly follow it.

It seems that these police were filling a quota or unthinkingly reacting to a complaint.
Let's stick to the facts at hand as given by the OP. The child was clearly not doing up his shoelaces or kicking a ball. It is quite reasonable to assume that the child in question could not/could have started to walk without warning. The legality of the fine is clear. I would rather not enter into a discussion about discretion around children crossing roads. My argument favored absolutes, which I will still argue , should be applied when it comes to young pedestrians at crossings. As someone pointed out earlier, what's the logical follow through ? You stop, no one gets hurt, you only slow down, you increase the risk someone gets hurt. Familiarity with a crossing will breed contempt for pedestrians and yourself as a driver will slowly train yourself into a dangerous pattern of thought.
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  #86  
Old 08.04.2011, 07:11
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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I had a very "interesting" experience yesterday in Zug.

I was getting a lift home at about 1900 in the evening, through a street with a 30 km/h speed limit (which we did adhere to).
There are several apartment buildings along this street, hence kids playing on the side walk is not an uncommon sight, and also why the speed limit is as low as 30.

As we were driving along we came up to one of the pedestrian crossings, and as we came up to this crossing, we both saw an 8-10 year old kid standing on the opposite side of the street next to the crossing. The kid was just standing there with his hands in his pockets, making no indication to actually cross the road, so we carried on past without stopping.

There was no dangerous situation in any way, and as we passed, the kid still did no indication to move towards the street in order to cross nor did he even look at the cars coming up the street. Had he made the slightest indication showing that he was intending to cross, we would have had ample time to come to a gentle stop well in front of the crossing and well before the kid had reached over to our side of the street.

He did not, but remained stationary on the side walk with his hands in his pockets and looking aimlessly around him and up into the sky. My friend who was driving even commented as we passed that it was an odd place to just stand like that.

However as we came around the next corner the, reason for the kid just standing there the way he did became clear.

There the police had set up a check point with uniforms and cars, and was stopping everyone that failed to stop for this kid who they obviously had planted there in order to create a “situation”.
They did not even attempt to hide the fact that this was a trap they had set, but bluntly proceeded to issue a fine for not stopping.

In any other country I have lived in, this behavior would be considered a clear case of entrapment, and would be illegal for the police to conduct.
Is this really an acceptable method of work for the Swiss police?
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Nonsense! Good police officers in any country understand that good, safe driving is about mature judgement calls not about following the rules. That's why, whatever your age, your insurance will never be more expensive than the day after you successfully pass you driving test (after successfully remembering all the rules). If you're watching a child walk down the street, stop near a crossing to do up their shoe laces, you can continue driving, being reasonably certain that it's a tough ask for a child to get up and dart into the road. Conversely, if children are playing with a ball no where near a crossing, the proper thing to do is to slow to a crawl, knowing that if the ball shoots into the road, a child may unthinkingly follow it.

It seems that these police were filling a quota or unthinkingly reacting to a complaint.
I agree with UTH.

I re-quoted the OP, together with bolding the pertinent parts for ease of understanding.

The child in question was not tying his shoes, he was (apparently) daydreaming. I've seen plenty of children doing that, wherever they are and whatever they're supposed to be doing, particularly if they're waiting for something that isn't happening - such as cars stopping for them.

I have no idea whether the Swiss driving laws are strict, reasonable, too highly fined, whatever... what I do know is that when it comes to children, you can't simply assume you know what they're going to do. Child at crosswalk, no matter what you THINK they're going to do, you simply stop.

This is something that is always important to keep in mind BUT I feel pretty confident that it likely is a police exercise (whether the child was involved or whether the police were simply observing that crossing in general) to help make drivers more aware prior to the upcoming school break. (Hubby says here in Basel, we can expect the kids to have a week off for Easter... I'm sure there will be plenty out and about, particularly if the weather is as nice as it is right now.)
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  #87  
Old 08.04.2011, 08:05
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

I don't fear the cars at the crossing, nope. They are enough big to be seen. I fear those stupid cyclists and scooters who believe the law doesn't apply to them.

Those are the one that should be heavily punished. A scooter or motorbike have to respect the road code too. They are not allowed to pass cars on the right or the left when stuck in the traffic. They come out of nowhere and pass at full speed. They believe to be upper the law and too often I see them coming very close to hit a pedestrian at a crossing.

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Old 08.04.2011, 08:59
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Nonsense! Good police officers in any country understand that good, safe driving is about mature judgement calls not about following the rules.
The rules need to be in place for the 50% of drivers who are unable to make mature judgement calls.
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  #89  
Old 08.04.2011, 16:34
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Is this really an acceptable method of work for the Swiss police?
I am still no clearer as to whether the police should be using a child in such a scenario?

It is clear that not to stop is wrong in the letter of the law, but wouldn't the police also be in a world of trouble if the kid they were using as a "stooge" got hit by a car?
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Old 08.04.2011, 16:36
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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I am still no clearer as to whether the police should be using a child in such a scenario?

It is clear that not to stop is wrong in the letter of the law, but wouldn't the police also be in a world of trouble if the kid they were using as a "stooge" got hit by a car?
Was the child actually being used by the Police or was he merely in the street and the Police were monitoring road usage anyway?

I have seen the Police monitoring traffic in our street whilst children have been playing.
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Old 08.04.2011, 17:31
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

When I taught we had police come to the school to teach children to cross the road. They were very clear with the children that they should wait at the crossing until the cars have stopped for them. I don't remember any instruction of not loitering at the crossing, etc.
I think this comes from the parents, who know themselves how difficult it can be to judge what someone is doing, and don't want their children to get hurt by accidentally giving out mixed signals to drivers.
I do think it was 'set up' by the police as I've yet to find a child who randomly waits at crossings without ever actually crossing. To be honest, I'd have a few tickets myself from not being able to figure out what someone is doing at the crossing, and doing just what the OP did.
This is completely different from people who just blow through the crossing with no regard for it. Those people do deserve a ticket. When I wait with the buggy for five cars to drive by before one stops to let me cross, I know it's not because I look unsure of what I need to do. They just don't want to stop.
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Old 08.04.2011, 17:53
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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I am still no clearer as to whether the police should be using a child in such a scenario?

It is clear that not to stop is wrong in the letter of the law, but wouldn't the police also be in a world of trouble if the kid they were using as a "stooge" got hit by a car?
If a policeman asked his own kid to stand there, how would anyone find out? Who will take this case to court? What crime did the policeman commit in any case if he asked a random kid to stand there?

Take it as lesson learned and just let it go.
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Old 08.04.2011, 17:59
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Just wondered what I would do if it happened to me. Providing I had the time, I'd park up after getting caught, walk back to near the stop and just observe. If your suspicions prove to be correct, call the Head of Police and make an appointment to discuss, or phone the local newspaper reporter. Not much point complaining to us here or make accusations, as there is no way of knowing what really happened.

Last edited by Odile; 08.04.2011 at 18:26.
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  #94  
Old 09.04.2011, 12:59
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The rules need to be in place for the 50% of drivers who are unable to make mature judgement calls.
I feel you are being very generous with that 50% - I'd put it closer to 90% just from watching the numbers of folk driving around preoccupied by things other than the task in hand (kids, mobile phones, music, make-up, smoking/eating/drinking) not to mention the limited mental capacity of many to focus on a single task let alone multi-task.

Thankfully at least people here are infinitely more spatially aware behind a wheel than they are in a pair of shoes.
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Old 09.04.2011, 13:35
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Are you sure the kid wasn't stopped there waiting for you to stop before he proceeded to cross? They are taught to do it that way. They are not taught to start to cross to make the cars stop.
The hell they're not. In Zurich, everyone just saunters out into traffic, often without looking. Hell, on more than one occasion I've seen parents push the baby carriage into traffic first. They just assume traffic will stop.
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Old 09.04.2011, 13:41
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Was the child actually being used by the Police or was he merely in the street and the Police were monitoring road usage anyway?

I have seen the Police monitoring traffic in our street whilst children have been playing.
The kid was put there by the police.

This was organized, and they made no secret of this when we were pulled over. The were actually surprisingly blunt, saying something like: "We have a kid standing by the cross walk down there, and you failed to stop".

Unfortunately the kid did not preform his part of the masquerade properly in the sense that he was supposed to look like he, as the rules state, "intended to cross the road", hence the result was a failure to stop on our side (due to application of common sense, a mistake which will not be repeated in the future thanks to this experience), and promptly being stopped and issued a pretty orange Fr. 140 pay in slip as a reward.
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Old 09.04.2011, 13:53
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The kid was put there by the police.

This was organized, and they made no secret of this when we were pulled over. The were actually surprisingly blunt, saying something like: "We have a kid standing by the cross walk down there, and you failed to stop".

Unfortunately the kid did not preform his part of the masquerade properly in the sense that he was supposed to look like he, as the rules state, "intended to cross the road", hence the result was a failure to stop on our side (due to application of common sense, a mistake which will not be repeated in the future thanks to this experience), and promptly being stopped and issued a pretty orange Fr. 140 pay in slip as a reward.


So, are you saying, the Police and/or child forced/made/coerced you into breaking the law ?
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Old 09.04.2011, 14:01
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Those are the one that should be heavily punished. A scooter or motorbike have to respect the road code too. They are not allowed to pass cars on the right or the left when stuck in the traffic. They come out of nowhere and pass at full speed. They believe to be upper the law and too often I see them coming very close to hit a pedestrian at a crossing.

I couldn't agree more. At the Zurich Opernhaus tram stop (important: it's closed to all vehicular traffic except public trans vehicles), I witnessed a girl from my school get hit by a motorcycle. I still remember seeing the veggies from the sandwich she'd just bought at the Gourmessa flying through the air.

So this motorcyclist not only drove through a road he should never have been on, he was going too fast to see the pedestrians. He hit one, skidded out on the bike trying to stop, with him and the bike lying right in the path of the moving tram the pedestrian was heading for. So yeah, the tram also had to emergency brake. Hopefully no passengers were hurt.

Le sigh...
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Old 09.04.2011, 14:03
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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So, are you saying, the Police and/or child forced/made/coerced you into breaking the law ?
But the law says to stop for pedestrians who appear to intend to cross. As best I can interpret said law, a person standing near a crosswalk, showing no intent to cross, does not trigger the "you must stop for pedestrians" rule.
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Old 09.04.2011, 14:45
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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But the law says to stop for pedestrians who appear to intend to cross. As best I can interpret said law, a person standing near a crosswalk, showing no intent to cross, does not trigger the "you must stop for pedestrians" rule.
The presence is a trigger to stop. Standing is a sign of intent. Presence is a sign of intent. Pedestrians tend to walk. The majority of pedestrians are walking. The majority of people standing near a crossing are going to cross. Trying to argue that a pedestrian didn't look like he was going to cross is at best weak and at worst dangerous.

Intent cannot accurately be interpreted and guesswork invites risk. It all depends on your attitude to risk and respect. What will happen if you do stop and what will happen if you don't stop.

Save yourself guesswork. Avoid risk. Save lives. Stop.
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