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  #101  
Old 09.04.2011, 20:25
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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So, are you saying, the Police and/or child forced/made/coerced you into breaking the law ?
No. What i am saying, and what has been pointed out repeatedly throughout this thread, is that we did not actually break the law as the basic criteria of the trap set by the police, the fact that the pedestrian actually needs to indicate that he is at some point intending to cross the road was not present.
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  #102  
Old 09.04.2011, 20:28
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Why not go calmly to the Police, and ask to see the person in charge to discuss this. Or talk to your local newspaper. if they've done what you say they did, eg to 'plant' a kid to catch people, then the legality of that is doubtful. However it would have been better to go back and observe and make absolutely sure of your facts.

Last edited by Odile; 09.04.2011 at 21:41.
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  #103  
Old 09.04.2011, 20:44
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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No. What i am saying, and what has been pointed out repeatedly throughout this thread, is that we did not actually break the law as the basic criteria of the trap set by the police, the fact that the pedestrian actually needs to indicate that he is at some point intending to cross the road was not present.
...you never knew that at the time though did you , no one has to indicate they want to cross, or if they did, standing at a crossing indicates intent.
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  #104  
Old 09.04.2011, 21:04
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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The presence is a trigger to stop. Standing is a sign of intent. Presence is a sign of intent. Pedestrians tend to walk. The majority of pedestrians are walking. The majority of people standing near a crossing are going to cross. Trying to argue that a pedestrian didn't look like he was going to cross is at best weak and at worst dangerous.

Intent cannot accurately be interpreted and guesswork invites risk. It all depends on your attitude to risk and respect. What will happen if you do stop and what will happen if you don't stop.

Save yourself guesswork. Avoid risk. Save lives. Stop.
Was hoping to maintain a factual and open discussion here, but this has gone too far now. Let's have a look at your last argumentative post:

The presence is a trigger to stop. --> Wrong. This is not accordint to the letter of the law (read the post from MathNut) that specifies that intent is necessary. People are actually allowed to stand on a sidewalk.

Standing is a sign of intent. --> I am not able to make any sense of this claim at all. Sign of intent to do what? Not sit down?

Presence is a sign of intent. --> Again, this claim is irrelevant to the question at hand, and does not make any sense in this context, as it does not consider the relevant basics. People are allowed to be on a sidewalk, so not sure what you are attempting to point out here.

Pedestrians tend to walk. --> True as a general statement. This is basically the definition of a pedestrian. But unfortunately not relevant here, a fact that should be clear to anyone who have read the previous posts.

The majority of pedestrians are walking. --> repeating yourself, and again; this is the base definition of a pedestrian and completely irrelevant here.

The majority of people standing near a crossing are going to cross. --> This may be true, but the letter of the law quoted earlier in this thread still defines that there must be intent to cross, and standing in the middle of the sidewalk with ones hands in ones pocked, whistling Dixie and looking around to see if the stork is on his way to his mum's house to deliver a little brother or sister does not qualify as intent to cross in my book.

Trying to argue that a pedestrian didn't look like he was going to cross is at best weak and at worst dangerous. --> What you are saying here is that using ones brain and common sense is not good. Might be true for some, but the majority of drivers actually have working brains, and are capable of making rational decisions.

Intent cannot accurately be interpreted and guesswork invites risk. It all depends on your attitude to risk and respect. What will happen if you do stop and what will happen if you don't stop. --> if you read the earlier posts again, you will find several of them plainly spelling out in simple language that IF the kid had bolted into the street at any given time, we would have had ample time to come to a comfortable stop, and would not have hit him. Please please please read the posts properly before banging on about the same irrelevant issue over and over again.

Save yourself guesswork. Avoid risk. Save lives. Stop. --> So what you actually state here is that regardless of circumstances, if you see anyone in the vicinity of any crosswalk at any time and in any situation, the only right and safe thing to do is to stop?
If people actually did this, how do you think it would affect issues like traffic flow, or even your own safety due to the fact that jumping on the brakes and randomly stopping every 15 meters would cause other drivers to rear end you every other day (and then drag you out of the car and beat you to a pulp for acting like such a tw4t)?

Not sure what kind of crusade you are on here, but if you feel you still need to post yet another reply in this thread after the 12 negative posts you have written so far, please can i ask that you take the time to read and understand the original post and the issue at hand rather than just acting like a random forum troll on a quest to up his post number?
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  #105  
Old 09.04.2011, 21:08
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Jee-zus. The guy didn't run over the child. He's probably been kicking a footy round and giving his mum grief today like any other of the 100's of 1000's of kids in this country.

Can we call off the dogs now?
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  #106  
Old 09.04.2011, 21:10
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Standing at a crossing is a sign of intent to cross.
You made a serious error in judgement and show signs of a dangerous driver when you chose not to stop. Obviously being fined has not taught you the lesson you need to learn and you are still here harping on in self righteous retrospective self pity.

Next time, stop. How easier can I write that to be understood ?
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  #107  
Old 09.04.2011, 21:39
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Not sure if i am the one that is acting self righteous here, but is does seem very clear that you know better what actually happened there than both me as the passenger in the car, and Mac the Knife who was the unfortunate driver, so I'm guessing that means you must have been there as well...

Are you actually the young pretty police officer who issued the fine?
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  #108  
Old 09.04.2011, 21:48
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

So go to the Police or the Press and sort it out with them, if you are sure of your facts. What are you afraid of?
If it is a 'tactic' of the local police, then others must have been caught on a regular basis. Has this happened to anybody else who lives in Zug area?

Last edited by Odile; 09.04.2011 at 22:05.
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  #109  
Old 10.04.2011, 11:02
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Not sure if i am the one that is acting self righteous here, but is does seem very clear that you know better what actually happened there than both me as the passenger in the car, and Mac the Knife who was the unfortunate driver, so I'm guessing that means you must have been there as well...

Are you actually the young pretty police officer who issued the fine?
Not having been there, you are the only one who can assess the situation.

The police do check certain intersections and they do respond to citizens' complaints of driver non-compliance. Hence, the kid was unlikely to be a trap but was used to confirm what the patrol was looking for. Bad timing on your part.

I think it's a silly law, but it's not up to me to question it. I've actually seen a driver get rear-ended because he thought someone standing near a pedestrian crossing (but who wasn't facing it) instead of waiting for his wife to finish her shoe window-shopping (no she did't buy anything, she has enough shoes). At the same time, I have very nearly run someone over because they simply ran into the pedestrian zone without any prior indication or 'eye-contact. I missed him by about 10 centimeters and judging from the look on is face, his first action upon arriving home was to change his underwear.

A bicyclist may not ride his/her bike across pedestrian zebra stripes. They must first dismount and push the bike across. I once saw such a police patrol standing at a pedestrian crossing and I had the unique opportunity of stopping and waving a bike rider across, who rode right into the arms of the waiting police officer. So it goes both ways.
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  #110  
Old 12.04.2011, 14:30
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

It's you! You're the the person they pay to stand loitering next to zebra crossings!

Cheers,
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A bicyclist may not ride his/her bike across pedestrian zebra stripes. They must first dismount and push the bike across. I once saw such a police patrol standing at a pedestrian crossing and I had the unique opportunity of stopping and waving a bike rider across, who rode right into the arms of the waiting police officer. So it goes both ways.
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  #111  
Old 12.04.2011, 14:42
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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No. What i am saying, and what has been pointed out repeatedly throughout this thread, is that we did not actually break the law as the basic criteria of the trap set by the police, the fact that the pedestrian actually needs to indicate that he is at some point intending to cross the road was not present.
No, I'm afraid that's where you're wrong.

Legally the pedestrian does not "need to indicate" anything. You are to stop if he "apparently intends" to cross, but the onus is on you to perceive his intent, not on him to demonstrate it. Hand signals, eye contact, looking both ways, striding toward the crosswalk with chin up and a purposeful gleam in his eye... all these things may show intent but their absence does not necessarily indicate absence of intent.


Again: there is no specific action that a pedestrian must take to show intent, so you do have to guess/mindread, and if the police reckon you guessed it wrong, you are wasting your time arguing with them.
Carry on though, don't let me stop you.
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  #112  
Old 12.04.2011, 14:57
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

Had a mildly annoying situation last night; had just pulled out of our parking and just a few metres down the road there were stood some people on both sides of a zebra crossing. I slowed and stopped, only to be waved on since they were chatting to each other across the road and had no intention to cross, even though they were ALL stationary at the crossing. Just effing annoying.
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  #113  
Old 12.04.2011, 15:01
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

It is annoying - it's happened to me - both as victim and culprit. Just ready to cross, and a friend says hello- life happens. If it happens now- I always say - let's get away from the crossing before having that kiss/kiss + chat.

Last edited by Odile; 12.04.2011 at 15:31.
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  #114  
Old 12.04.2011, 15:18
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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Save yourself guesswork. Avoid risk. Save lives. Stop. --> So what you actually state here is that regardless of circumstances, if you see anyone in the vicinity of any crosswalk at any time and in any situation, the only right and safe thing to do is to stop?
If people actually did this, how do you think it would affect issues like traffic flow, or even your own safety due to the fact that jumping on the brakes and randomly stopping every 15 meters would cause other drivers to rear end you every other day (and then drag you out of the car and beat you to a pulp for acting like such a tw4t)?

LOL

Gotta love it when people use numbers in place of letters in attempt to avoid profanity filters. That word isn't as bad in UK as in US (and perhaps elsewhere - personally I hate it though) so it's not filtered. If you think it is bad enough to GET filtered, why use it?

Anyhow, that's beside the point.

The point is (before I noticed the 4 = A thing)...

IF one is in an area where there are crossings every 15 meters, generally one would be traveling at a speed and with alertness that "jumping on the brakes" would be (mostly) unnecessary, barring truly unexpected things, wouldn't one?

I mean, I've not driven since I arrived as I left my car back in the US and am greatly enjoying the prevalence of public transport but still, I'm pretty sure I had that concept down cold. Lots of crossings, drive slowly, be aware and you will find there is little or no need for "jumping on the breaks."

HTH!
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  #115  
Old 13.04.2011, 17:08
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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But the law says to stop for pedestrians who appear to intend to cross. As best I can interpret said law, a person standing near a crosswalk, showing no intent to cross, does not trigger the "you must stop for pedestrians" rule.
I've never seen this kind of traps.
In Ticino people don't stop at pedestrain crossing if they're going at full speed and there's space behind them for the pedestrain to cross (light traffic), this rule is more relaxed.

Anyway that child was being stupid, but it doesn't happen that often so don't worry about it, just stop.
Most of the time you get clear intentions, when you don't, better be safe than sorry (you don't lose that much time since it's not usual).
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  #116  
Old 14.04.2011, 01:18
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

The child was "being" eight!

Actually that's one of the reasons why they don't let eight year olds drive.
Mind you it is popular here to let them take their lives in their own little hands crossing the roads at zebra crossings, hoping everyone knows the rules and can read their minds...
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  #117  
Old 14.04.2011, 02:08
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Re: Is entrapment an accepted method for Swiss police?

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I had a very "interesting" experience yesterday in Zug.

I was getting a lift home at about 1900 in the evening, through a street with a 30 km/h speed limit (which we did adhere to).
There are several apartment buildings along this street, hence kids playing on the side walk is not an uncommon sight, and also why the speed limit is as low as 30.

As we were driving along we came up to one of the pedestrian crossings, and as we came up to this crossing, we both saw an 8-10 year old kid standing on the opposite side of the street next to the crossing. The kid was just standing there with his hands in his pockets, making no indication to actually cross the road, so we carried on past without stopping.

There was no dangerous situation in any way, and as we passed, the kid still did no indication to move towards the street in order to cross nor did he even look at the cars coming up the street. Had he made the slightest indication showing that he was intending to cross, we would have had ample time to come to a gentle stop well in front of the crossing and well before the kid had reached over to our side of the street.

He did not, but remained stationary on the side walk with his hands in his pockets and looking aimlessly around him and up into the sky. My friend who was driving even commented as we passed that it was an odd place to just stand like that.

However as we came around the next corner the, reason for the kid just standing there the way he did became clear.

There the police had set up a check point with uniforms and cars, and was stopping everyone that failed to stop for this kid who they obviously had planted there in order to create a “situation”.
They did not even attempt to hide the fact that this was a trap they had set, but bluntly proceeded to issue a fine for not stopping.

In any other country I have lived in, this behavior would be considered a clear case of entrapment, and would be illegal for the police to conduct.
Is this really an acceptable method of work for the Swiss police?
A) To employ non-adults for police-actions is illegal
B) The law says clearly that the intention of a person to cross the road must be clearly visible
-
C) you speak about "Swiss Police". Sorry, but such a force does not exist. Even if all policemen in Switzerland have to proceed in accordance with federal laws, they are policemen of either Cantonal Police forces or City Police forces, and get there command from the Police Ministries of either their Canton of their City. This means in practice that something which is common in one Canton is out of the question in the next one.
D) they do this trick until they by chance get confronted by a lawyer
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