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  #41  
Old 19.04.2011, 15:55
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Re: Lack of reality...

... sorry if this is not the right place to ask :
could I live on 80k CHF/year in ZH?!

Last edited by Luc P; 19.04.2011 at 15:56. Reason: sp
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  #42  
Old 19.04.2011, 15:58
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Re: Lack of reality...

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... sorry if this is not the right place to ask :
could I live on 80k CHF/year in ZH?!
Yep. in a cardboard box
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  #43  
Old 19.04.2011, 16:35
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Re: Lack of reality...

Yes, I am a troll... bear with me...

Good students coming from a good school in Switzerland are offered 100k on their first job. I am not talking about CEO's, expats, whatever... just normal but capable people.

Where is all this crazy expat business coming from? The first goal for someone coming here would be to have the same standard of living of someone already working here (I think that's theoretically enforced by law). The second goal would be to earn as much as those who do well here. The third is to get all the funny perks and be able to send the kids to Harvard on the company's dime.

It is not that hard to understand... some people make more money than others. Some times they have the capabilities, some times they lack ethics and some times people actually choose not to earn as much but take a job their enjoy. Luckily, it is a big world out there...

Imagine how much you have to offer that guy earning 100k on his first job to move to, let's say, Manhattan... I am sure he just opened a thread on www.swissforum.us asking "Can I survive in NY with $260k a year? Is that enough to have a small garden and a couple of cows or should I get goats instead?"

People ask funny things... yes. But when they provide some context you can actually get somewhere...
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  #44  
Old 19.04.2011, 17:09
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Re: Lack of reality...

Hmm, a good school? We don't really have "better or worse" universities here, even if HSG tries to make everyone believe in their utter awesomeness. Ok, maybe ETH is a cut above the rest... Anyway, the being offered 100k straight out of uni story is a bit of an urban legend. A lot of my brilliant ETH maths friends decided to go for a doctorate instead of joining the "classic" workforce because the real offers were not that fantastic after all...
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  #45  
Old 19.04.2011, 17:18
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Re: Lack of reality...

Kittster, It is not ...

You are free to believe otherwise of course, I always encourage people to be skeptical of what is said in public forums.
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  #46  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:07
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Re: Lack of reality...

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Hmm, a good school? We don't really have "better or worse" universities here, even if HSG tries to make everyone believe in their utter awesomeness. Ok, maybe ETH is a cut above the rest... Anyway, the being offered 100k straight out of uni story is a bit of an urban legend. A lot of my brilliant ETH maths friends decided to go for a doctorate instead of joining the "classic" workforce because the real offers were not that fantastic after all...
Aside from this...

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Kittster, It is not ...
The other point is that "straight out of uni" usually means after your doctorate, for many people.

Most graduates from Swiss and German unis in those 100k positions that I've come across didn't even bother looking for jobs and went straight to PhD, which remains a "must have" in most "Germanic" blue-chip companies in order to get on the first rung of the corporate ladder, let alone into senior management.
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  #47  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:08
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Re: Lack of reality...

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Kittster, It is not ...

You are free to believe otherwise of course, I always encourage people to be skeptical of what is said in public forums.
Are you teaching majors in Social Networking and Media Studies or work with people with low self esteem as profession?

After reading this thread, I think I need a serious payrise!
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  #48  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:26
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Re: Lack of reality...

I don't think 100k jobs for graduates are the norm - no actually I know they're not. I agree graduates can earn good money but that depends on what you studied and where you will be working. 80-90'000 is probably more realistic. Don't get me wrong, that's a lot of money but it's still less than 100...

Back to the initial topic: it is true that many Swiss people earn less. And I'm not talking about unqualified people but people with a finish apprenticeship. People in Coop, Migros, gardener, motor mecanics etc the list goes on. Still many of these people have a good life. And one thing that explains why the might have a better life than "expats" with the same income is that they have been working for a long time. They start with 16 and are done with the apprenticeship 3 to 4 years later. If you work in an office you earn probably around 4,800 a month now. So you are able to save. Maybe not a lot but constantly. And that adds up!
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  #49  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:42
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Re: Lack of reality...

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What amuses me is when you get comments like "ah yes, you don't earn a lot but you're a student" - sorry to break this to you but I pay the same health insurance, the same train fare, in fact, pretty much the same everything as everybody else. It's not like other countries where students get loans and free stuff. So on the one hand people think that it's impossible to live on less than the magic 120 k and on the other hand, as long as SOMEBODY ELSE is doing it, then of course it works.

My parents with my two siblings in their large house manage on well under 120 k, they have two cars, go on long holidays and still save money. But they also don't believe in eating meat every day and they shop according to what is on offer that week. Never hired a babysitter (muggins was around, my tip, space your kids well, you'll save a fortune on child care...), never bought us brand name clothes and generally didn't follow this weird thinking of keeping up with the Müllers.

I think that is a biiiig part of why these questions come, you want a salary that's worth showing off with. A sort of "well, yes, I'm sure YOU'd be happy to not pee standing up after ten if YOU were making as much money as I am"...
I don't think this is entirely accurate. I've seen a few places which give discounts for students.

I get a free bank account and free credit card from UBS. If you want a GA pass (2250CHF instead of 3100CHF). All of the university students also get I think about 18% off the apple store twice a year through the neptune discounts. I know a few crepe places that give student deals as well.

Even the taxi I was in the other day had preferential rates for students...something I'd never see in the UK.
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  #50  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:46
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Re: Lack of reality...

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Aside from this...



The other point is that "straight out of uni" usually means after your doctorate, for many people.
I think the other person (not you Carlos) also missed the point that after your doctorate, usually people do a post-doc (for few years) and the pos-doc stipends are not 100 K (if they are, I should have done post-doc here)
I am not going to write my personal experience here but I just came back from NYC and visited a friend. She is doing her post-doc in Manhattan and makes 48 K/year. I wonder if she has posted on a forum like this (filled with privilaged expats...) people would have mocked her and etc.
Now the reality, she lives on Rosevelt island (less than a mile away from Manhattan), pays US $ 1300 for a nice studio in a relatively new building with doorman, gym and other facilities and does live a "comfortable" life.
In conclusion, you can live off 80 K in Switzerland with some adjusting and compromises.
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  #51  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:47
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Re: Lack of reality...

As mentioned in the previous post... definitely not the norm. But saying it is an urban legend is not correct either.

I know many people live happy with much less and some others who are very unhappy with much more... that's life... there is even a religion based on the realisation of unconditional happiness...

Be grateful if you are happy and you live well with what you have, many others are not as lucky as you are (even if they are making more money).
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  #52  
Old 19.04.2011, 18:48
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Re: Lack of reality...

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I think the other person (not you Carlos) also missed the point that after your doctorate, usually people do a post-doc (for few years) and the pos-doc stipends are not 100 K (if they are, I should have done post-doc here)
I am not going to write my personal experience here but I just came back from NYC and visited a friend. She is doing her post-doc in Manhattan and makes 48 K/year. I wonder if she has posted on a forum like this (filled with privilaged expats...) people would have mocked her and etc.
Now the reality, she lives on Rosevelt island (less than a mile away from Manhattan), pays US $ 1300 for a nice studio in a relatively new building with doorman, gym and other facilities and does live a "comfortable" life.
In conclusion, you can live off 80 K in Switzerland with some adjusting and compromises.
I know a guy who just finished his PhD and is earning 90k doing a post doc
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  #53  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:03
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Re: Lack of reality...

I am on 140k and struggling to save.
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  #54  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:03
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Re: Lack of reality...

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I know a guy who just finished his PhD and is earning 90k doing a post doc
Still not 100 K
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  #55  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:15
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Re: Lack of reality...

I think 100k per adult is the minimum you require in Switzerland. Otherwise might as well go and live in a third world country and get more bang for your buck.

Rent alone here takes 50k a year from my pay packet. I could save some money if I moved into a cheaper place but anything under 3-4k a month is sub par for a successful human being's living standard.

I might sound snobbish but that is what I feel.
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  #56  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:19
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Re: Lack of reality...

Reality is a subjective term. My reality is obviously not same as posche1909's reality. In my business I have to appear sucessful to make more money.
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  #57  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:22
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Re: Lack of reality...

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I know a guy who just finished his PhD and is earning 90k doing a post doc
I can confirm this, as I am this
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  #58  
Old 19.04.2011, 19:31
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Re: Lack of reality...

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I can confirm this, as I am this
I did my post-doc in the wrong country but no regrets, had a good time personally and professionally
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Old 19.04.2011, 19:33
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Re: Lack of reality...

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I think 100k per adult is the minimum you require in Switzerland. Otherwise might as well go and live in a third world country and get more bang for your buck.

Rent alone here takes 50k a year from my pay packet. I could save some money if I moved into a cheaper place but anything under 3-4k a month is sub par for a successful human being's living standard.

I might sound snobbish but that is what I feel.
I feel quite sorry for you if you feel this way. You also should reconsider who sorts out your accommodation because there are a couple of REALLY nice places near where I live now (aka, one of the fancy areas of Zurich) that go for a lot less than 50k per annum.
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Old 19.04.2011, 19:34
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Re: Lack of reality...

I don't mind sarcasm and honesty ...

but please don't feed the troll.
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