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  #81  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:04
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Re: What has the banker become?

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sorry to be blunt but i can't believe you have any relevant experience in this case based your failure to understand the difference between retail banking and investment banking.

people dont just whip up structured products. risk management quants are involved in every step of the process.
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agree but so long as the product is structured to give the theoretically correct exposures, then can you say the ultimately responsibility lies on the buyer who performs due diligence on the purchase so long as the ibank didn't withhold material info or lie? nobody is guaranteeing here that the product will perform well.
The point is that the bank is selling the product as an insurance, and the investor is assuming the banker/structurer/risk manager is well paid because he knows what he is doing. My concern is that the individual is bright enough to know that he doesnt know but he sells the product under the umbrella of "nobody is guaranteeing here that the product will perform well"
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Old 13.04.2011, 13:05
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Re: What has the banker become?

And incidentally Scrambled, I think you could use that edit button of yours here
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  #83  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:06
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Re: What has the banker become?

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how about i shove that right back in your face? smart
You must really hate your job - sorry to have upset you
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  #84  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:11
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Re: What has the banker become?

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The point is that the bank is selling the product as an insurance, and the investor is assuming the banker/structurer/risk manager is well paid because he knows what he is doing. My concern is that the individual is bright enough to know that he doesnt know but he sells the product under the umbrella of "nobody is guaranteeing here that the product will perform well"
lucky for us all developed countries have rules that say we can only sell these things to accredited/sophisticated investors (e.g. institutional or high net worth). yes it's the bank's responsibility to do a good job and be as thorough as reasonably possible, but ultimately the buyers should know and understand the risks involved. nobody complains when the markets are hot and they're reaping the upside, but of course when things head south everybody's up in arms.
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  #85  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:15
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Re: What has the banker become?

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You must really hate your job - sorry to have upset you
I've no idea what this picture means, but it came up when I googled "irony bank lol"

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  #86  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:15
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Re: What has the banker become?

Yep and who are those sophisticated investors? Well I would start with pension fund investors, who in my opinion are bankers, and therefore know nothing more or less than the structurer.That is why if the general public understood half of what happens in the banking world, there would be absolute mayhem.
The pension fund investor is obliged to buy into these products as he needs liquidity on a huge scale.
You may be too young to remember Michael Milken, but you would do well to check him out.
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Old 13.04.2011, 13:19
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Re: What has the banker become?

Well, I'm not a banker but I can tell you the "FAIL" stocks are up today.
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  #88  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:23
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Re: What has the banker become?

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lucky for us all developed countries have rules that say we can only sell these things to accredited/sophisticated investors (e.g. institutional or high net worth). yes it's the bank's responsibility to do a good job and be as thorough as reasonably possible, but ultimately the buyers should know and understand the risks involved. nobody complains when the markets are hot and they're reaping the upside, but of course when things head south everybody's up in arms.
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agree but so long as the product is structured to give the theoretically correct exposures, then can you say the ultimately responsibility lies on the buyer who performs due diligence on the purchase so long as the ibank didn't withhold material info or lie? nobody is guaranteeing here that the product will perform well.
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sorry to be blunt but i can't believe you have any relevant experience in this case based your failure to understand the difference between retail banking and investment banking.

people dont just whip up structured products. risk management quants are involved in every step of the process.
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your hyperbole is noted but these arent dumb people.

if you're going to use structured products as an example you need to be more specific (since i work on structured products). they ARE low risk, it's not the fault of the structurer that clients use incredible amounts of leverage to gear their positions.
I thought it would be handy to read these quotes backwards. Its important.Im not having a bash the banker, nor bash Scrambled, or bash anyone day here, but I think I do understand banking and i think this illustrates one of the problems in banking
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  #89  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:26
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Re: What has the banker become?

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agree but so long as the product is structured to give the theoretically correct exposures, then can you say the ultimately responsibility lies on the buyer who performs due diligence on the purchase so long as the ibank didn't withhold material info or lie? nobody is guaranteeing here that the product will perform well.
So there were no bankers involved in the cause of the financial crisis? Yes blame the poor sod who's pension was handed over to a banker to "perform due diligence" and invest safely (i.e. with very probable theoretically correct exposures) and now will live on bread and jam until (probably) the same banking institutions reposeses their home for nonpayment becuase is pension has not performed as expected.

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lucky for us all developed countries have rules that say we can only sell these things to accredited/sophisticated investors (e.g. institutional or high net worth). yes it's the bank's responsibility to do a good job and be as thorough as reasonably possible, but ultimately the buyers should know and understand the risks involved. nobody complains when the markets are hot and they're reaping the upside, but of course when things head south everybody's up in arms.
I work for one of these banks and trust me I never get a call asking me whether my pension should be invested in a particular instrument/company/other made up "structure."

I know I'm harping on about pensions but this financial crisis has really made a lot of peoples lives/retirements bloody miserable. At least I have some years in hand to make sure I look after my own savings and not rely on any pension fund that is managed by somebody other than me.
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  #90  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:27
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Re: What has the banker become?

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sorry to be blunt but i can't believe you have any relevant experience in this case based your failure to understand the difference between retail banking and investment banking.

people dont just whip up structured products. risk management quants are involved in every step of the process.
Really? Dunno what bank you've been working for.

Confession time some years ago I worked as a forex trader in the Channel Islands for a large investment division of a well known bank.

Lets say i've seen the error of my ways. I was just as pretenious, unwilling to listen to reason as the current crop of morons, when I noticed I was selling my soul to the devil I left .
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  #91  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:28
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Re: What has the banker become?

Pension = joe P s money
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  #92  
Old 13.04.2011, 13:42
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Re: What has the banker become?

I actually wonder whether it is the bankers themselves that are at fault entirely. They are motivated to make large amounts of money through bonuses because these are small fractions of what the deal is worth. The essence of the issue is that banks themselves make too much. If the profit margin of a bank was reduced so they were not making several billion pounds in pure profit a year then this would trickle down to a reduced level of bonus for the employee which would then bring them back into the salary levels of other professions.

I have to say, to claim that investment banking is not risky really is pushing the envelope a bit. No matter what is declared about it being 'not my fault because our investments are authorised, have been researched etc' doens't really add up because it was ultimately caused by excessive risk taking by the banks together so there is collective responsibility.

The problem is you can't really do anything about it unless the world acts as one voice on it because the bank can easily move. So even if the current UK legislation went through in a tough format, the bank would move (to switzerland perhaps..) or America, or Asia or wherever there is less legislation. There isnt any easy way of pulling it back.

It's just a pity that bonuses are now back to pre-crash levels just as the real cuts begin to bite into the public sector so the difference in equality will be seen even more starkly.
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  #93  
Old 13.04.2011, 14:15
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Re: What has the banker become?

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What I find most alarming is the perception of bankers on this forum, where the majority of the perceivers work in IT for the banks or for evil empire pharma companies/Nestle and the like. It's got to be jealousy.
I think it is easy to discount the general persons hatred of millionaire banker lifestyle as envy, and jealousy plays a big part in this, I for one have felt the rough edge of another’s jealousy, and also have been jealous of others, but on the whole jealousy is a rather basic emotion, rooted in wanting the best for ones self and discarding the needs of others.

I think everybody can see the crime in a fat cat lighting his Cuban cigars from a $1000 note while the poor starve to death, this of course is an extreme example, but waste of money is the real crime, it is perfectly possible for everyone on this planet to be fed clothed and content if the wealth was shared, any reasonable person would accept not being fabulously rich if they could see that their own excess, surplice to requirement wealth went towards preventing 10 African children dying in horrendous conditions.
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Old 13.04.2011, 15:00
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Re: What has the banker become?

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I would also remind you Scrambled that it is not a bash the banker thread, but a question of whether the banker deserves this elevated position in salary or not
Fixed that for you. I don't think too many on here believe bankers have an elevated position in society.....
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  #95  
Old 13.04.2011, 15:41
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Re: What has the banker become?

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It's this sort of rule by decree that makes those who work in the banking industry so unpopular. That, and you're actually incorrect. Just because this is the definition your mates use down the wine bar after work, and just because this is how some in the banking industry speak to and think of the wine bar waiters, doesn't mean it's either right or acceptable. The semantics of this thread are as they are popularly held to be - the contributors to this thread believe that a "banker" is a dude who works for a bank, wears a suit and makes a lot of money. If you're using a different definition then you should start your own thread regarding that particular job.
no, that's just me playing down in the dirt where i've been dragged. i'm not so white gloved and noble where i won't call somebody stupid right back if i've been called the same first.

i have a problem with ignorance. think bankers are overpaid compared to their contributions to society? fine, i'm completely okay with your opinion as long as you can back it up. but nobody ever supports their position, they are sheep repeating whatever they hear without questioning or thinking about it, and bankers are the scapegoat du jour. do you dislike bankers? do you even know what they do or who they even are? rich doods in suits? come on. people are railing against fractional banking, account fees, pension plans, whatever else they can lash out at - the people behind these aren't the bankers you loathe because they're NOT rich. the rich guys in suits driving their porsches are the ones working in INVESTMENT BANKING. direct your contempt towards them if you can find something questionable about what they do (if you can figure out whatever that is).
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  #96  
Old 13.04.2011, 15:55
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Re: What has the banker become?

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I was walking my dog this morning at 06h00, and I saw a guy driving out of an underground car park from a lakeside appartment block that must cost minimum chf10k per month to rent, in his Porsche, and my reaction was, he must be a banker. That made me stop and think (well i had to stop anyway cos the dog was parking his breakfast, but i digress) I started to think about banks, their employees ,their position in society today,and the general publics perception of them.I came to the obvious kneejerk reaction which was overpaid buggers that caused grief and poverty to many people in recent years, but I stopped myself, when I wondered whether that wasnt oversimplified,ignorant jealousy. So I thought about it again and came up with the same conclusion, but ratified by the fact that when you analyse the banks performance in recent years, it doesnt warrant the status in todays society. Panorama did a very good study recently on pensions and how pension fund managers take a minimum of 17 pct of your payments to, well, pay themselves big fat bonuses. The average bank has probably the best real estate in town and its employees ditto (subsidised loans for property etc using which money?) the money the banks work with is a small percentage their own capital and a huge percentage of , well your capital, so why should the bankers pay themselves so much. My own instinct in life is that if you want to invest in something, take a look at who is screwing you the most in daily life and invest in that company , but investing in the banks last year would have brought on an early cardiac issue. Then when I remember all the complaints I have read about in these threads, a lot are to do with large companies screwing people on contracts, not fulfilling promises,over selling their product. That leads me to the conclusion that the banking business model is now spreading to a wider proportion of society and that we as the average donkey can either choose to reject that and live in the boonies off our own vegetables (if we can get them to rise from the ground) or join the club. Our choice is determined by what? Well our pension for one, and in whose hands is that? I wonder whether there will be an end to this or is the general donkeyship going to keep taking it right up the ying yang? your thoughts?

I honestly hadnt read the last few posts on the Iceland votes No thread before writing this, but it does follow on very well.
What has the paragraph become?
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Old 13.04.2011, 16:04
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Re: What has the banker become?

So it's not the bankers but the other bankers? the investing one, which are not t3h R3al bankers?
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Old 13.04.2011, 16:05
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Re: What has the banker become?

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no, that's just me playing down in the dirt where i've been dragged. i'm not so white gloved and noble where i won't call somebody stupid right back if i've been called the same first.

i have a problem with ignorance. think bankers are overpaid compared to their contributions to society? fine, i'm completely okay with your opinion as long as you can back it up. but nobody ever supports their position, they are sheep repeating whatever they hear without questioning or thinking about it, and bankers are the scapegoat du jour. do you dislike bankers? do you even know what they do or who they even are? rich doods in suits? come on. people are railing against fractional banking, account fees, pension plans, whatever else they can lash out at - the people behind these aren't the bankers you loathe because they're NOT rich. the rich guys in suits driving their porsches are the ones working in INVESTMENT BANKING. direct your contempt towards them if you can find something questionable about what they do (if you can figure out whatever that is).
Dude.I think you are proving the point. The point is peoples impression or lack of it towards the profession of banking. High street bankers today no longer exist.They are faceless and they provide revenue for investment bankers to gamble, without the high level of risk management that is offered by the banks as reassurance. That is why i raised the question as to how society will see a banker , paraia or contributor, and I think you have already answered the question yourself.
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Old 13.04.2011, 16:06
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Re: What has the banker become?

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What has the paragraph become?
What do you mean Olygirl, I honestly didnt understand
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Old 13.04.2011, 16:07
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Re: What has the banker become?

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What do you mean Olygirl, I honestly didnt understand
I tried to read your initial post but all I saw were lines and lines. By breaking up your thoughts into paragraphs, your thoughts become easier to read and follow.
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