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Old 30.04.2011, 21:29
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Employment of the non-EU

I really hate the way swiss HR treat non-EU job-sickers, although they are well-qualified. First served are always either Swiss (understandable) and then EU citizens! What is left for the rest??!!
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Old 30.04.2011, 21:31
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

Read this http://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/...zulassung.html
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Old 30.04.2011, 21:41
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You are clearly frustrated, but don't blame HR, they don't make the rules. In fact, companies often attempt to get permits for non-EU prospects and are turned down by the government, which has a reciprocal agreement with the EU with regard to freedom of movement and employment. That's just the way it is, and is no different anywhere else. I'm non-EU as well, by the way. We just have to be more creative!
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Old 03.05.2011, 17:28
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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You are clearly frustrated, but don't blame HR, they don't make the rules. In fact, companies often attempt to get permits for non-EU prospects and are turned down by the government, which has a reciprocal agreement with the EU with regard to freedom of movement and employment. That's just the way it is, and is no different anywhere else. I'm non-EU as well, by the way. We just have to be more creative!
I am surprised of your positive experience with HR. From my personal experience, even when a candidate is very well qualified (ie, position cannot be filled by EU of CH person), the HR department is usually still quite hesitant of hiring anyone non-EU. In most cases I know where the non-EU person ended up with a valid work permit, it was the hiring managers who had to push and "fight" with HR. It's a very unfortunate situation... and unfortunately, not all hiring managers are familiar with the rules and lots of them will just take the words from HR. Or even worse, HR would simply throw non-EU CVs away in their first screen...
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Old 03.05.2011, 20:12
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

what I hate is when they give you an interview even though they know beforehand that they will not give you the job
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Old 03.05.2011, 21:35
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

@lennam

If you haven't already seen it, then you might find this recent thread started in March 2011 encouraging - "My Experience Getting Hired in CH (NonEU)".
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Old 05.05.2011, 07:28
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

Technically it goes further than that. Romanians and Bulgarians (both EU now) won't have an easy time getting a work permit till 2016.

Also, the reason companies look at local and EU candidates first is because in order for them to apply for a work permit for non EU people there are a number of bureaucratic hurdles they must jump through.

1. The position must have remained unfilled for several months
2. Nobody local or in the EU has the skills required for the job

So if the job is something where there are plenty of Swiss people possessing the skills the government simply will not issue the permit and will insist they find someone local. Also, if they need someone quickly they don't have time to wait the months necessary for a work permit.

This is why HR often doesn't even consider non-EU. If they have been told to find someone quick it just doesn't make sense.
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Old 05.05.2011, 08:26
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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what I hate is when they give you an interview even though they know beforehand that they will not give you the job
It is the agreements with A) trades-unions (in favour of CH-citizens) and B) with the EU+EFTA (in favour of EU-citizens and citizens of Norway and Iceland). They have to prove that they checked CH/EU/EFTA applicants before they can give a job to an "outsider"
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Old 05.05.2011, 08:53
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

Personally, I think it is fair game. The moment non-EU countries (especially US) open their markets to CH/EU/NO and CH restricts their we have a valid reason to bitch and moan.

In addition, if you are indeed soooo unique and special that no one with matching skills and experience can be found in the EU/EFTA region I'm sure a company will find a way to get you over.




Disclaimer: I've both EU and non-EU passports.
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Old 05.05.2011, 09:00
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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It is the agreements with A) trades-unions (in favour of CH-citizens) and B) with the EU+EFTA (in favour of EU-citizens and citizens of Norway and Iceland). They have to prove that they checked CH/EU/EFTA applicants before they can give a job to an "outsider"
Although this may get me some groans, I do not have any problem with this.

Think if you were trying to work in your own home country and lots of folks were "flooding" in to take jobs, wouldn't you want "first crack" at those jobs as well, either for yourself or your friends?

Keep in mind that if there aren't enough jobs, the answer is to either seek benefit (which to some people is really no answer at all) or to search abroad. Would you rather your friends and neighbors move away to search for jobs?


Please don't take this as me saying you can't or shouldn't complain, but rather also, while you're upset / angry and need to vent, keep in mind that there are reasons beyond "simple" bureaucracy for these laws and regulations. While some may take national pride in seeing their fellow countrymen making themselves at home elsewhere, others take pride in seeing their youth grow to build their own country strong.
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Old 05.05.2011, 09:46
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

Personally I would be happier if more countries opened their labour markets to outside labour but then again I am a bit globalist in my views.

Ultimately the swiss have the right to decide who they want to let in. Be grateful there isn't an unemployment problem and that they are willing to allow outsiders to work here, even if hesitantly.
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Old 05.05.2011, 11:09
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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Personally I would be happier if more countries opened their labour markets to outside labour but then again I am a bit globalist in my views.
I think many of us who frequent this forum have similar globalist views but after living for years in Florida, where the main population growth is among the retirement age group, I can also see the point of wanting to do everything possible to help keep folks from moving away... particularly folks who are "invested" in more ways than just financial to the community.

Folks who move here for a job are likely to move on if they find a more attractive elsewhere, "we" have already proven that by moving here for a job in the first place. Folks who grow up here (or nearby, in the case of EU folk) and are able to make a comfortable (for them) living are a lot less likely to move away when the next great offer comes along.
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Old 05.05.2011, 11:41
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

I have no problem with the rules the way they are as they seem quite fair but what gets me is I have a B Permit with right to work in switzerland (I'm a trailing spouse) and my CV sometimes gets thrown in the bin when they see I am non-EU (even though I put my permit info in my CV and intro letter).

I think in general (and I have even had HR tell me this) they just look for any excuse to throw you in the bin and lower the amount of candidates aka work for the HR, they have to deal with. Its not right but I try not to dwell on it too much as thats just the way it is everywhere in the world right now.
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Old 05.05.2011, 12:20
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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I really hate the way swiss HR treat non-EU job-sickers, although they are well-qualified. First served are always either Swiss (understandable) and then EU citizens! What is left for the rest??!!
Have you tried getting a Job in the US, Canada, Japan, France, etc ?

Do you know of any country with complete freedom regarding to labour?

Actually, does anybody know a country where you can just move in and work without having to jump any barriers and without having any particular skill?

I am non-eu and I totally understand your frustration. Getting a job is not easy!. But I have to say I understand the Swiss point of view and believe it is relatively fair if they want to maintain the same standard of living.

I love direct democracy here, if people wanted more foreigners they would just pass a law allowing them to come... but they don't and part of living here peacefully means understanding that as well.

But keep trying, you get there at some point!
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Old 05.05.2011, 12:21
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I have no problem with the rules the way they are as they seem quite fair but what gets me is I have a B Permit with right to work in switzerland (I'm a trailing spouse) and my CV sometimes gets thrown in the bin when they see I am non-EU (even though I put my permit info in my CV and intro letter).

I think in general (and I have even had HR tell me this) they just look for any excuse to throw you in the bin and lower the amount of candidates aka work for the HR, they have to deal with. Its not right but I try not to dwell on it too much as thats just the way it is everywhere in the world right now.
I'd agree with you regarding the excuse not to include you on the short list...
I've found that HR here is pretty useless. When I was looking for employees it would be my name/email or the email of an external recruiter (which I commissioned to find the candidate) which would be in the advert. I would then do the pre-screen of candidates with some initial weeding-out done by a competent recruiter. HR would get involved in making the offer and contract signing as well as reference checking.

However, there I was a bit lucky to have the flexibility and would find the right person fast. Most firms here rely heavily on HR to do all of the work which is unfortunate as some stupid little item like missing diploma, reference letter or sound of your name (or nationality) would disqualify you.

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Have you tried getting a Job in the US, Canada, Japan, France, etc ?

Do you know of any country with complete freedom regarding to labour?

Actually, does anybody know a country where you can just move in and work without having to jump any barriers and without having any particular skill?

I am non-eu and I totally understand your frustration. Getting a job is not easy!. But I have to say I understand the Swiss point of view and believe it is relatively fair if they want to maintain the same standard of living.

I love direct democracy here, if people wanted more foreigners they would just pass a law allowing them to come... but they don't and part of living here peacefully means understanding that as well.

But keep trying, you get there at some point!
For most CH/EU/EFTA persons pretty much each country is now completely open to move to and work without any need for special permits...

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Old 05.05.2011, 13:08
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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For most CH/EU/EFTA persons pretty much each country is now completely open to move to and work without any need for special permits...
Yes, of course. I was implying how difficult it is to get a job in a country you don't belong to. Or a country without free movement agreements with your own.

The EU now is like a big blob concerning that. I was referring to the position of a Japanese guy looking for a job in France or a french guy looking for a job in Japan... of course, third worlders like myself get bonus points when they apply to _any_ other country
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Old 05.05.2011, 13:26
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

There are two issues that we are dealing here, and they are separate issues (although might be related).

Issue 1: Swiss rules on work permits for non-EU people.
Issue 2: general treatments from HR with CVs from non-EU people.

Personally, I don't have any complaints or issues about #1 above. As much as others have arleady said, there isn't really something so "wrong" about a country trying to protect its labor market.

What I do not like and cannot stand is issue #2 above! I don't think we should tolerate HR's behavior when their behavior is due to their laziness (less work to hire someone from the EU or CH as opposed to a "thrid country national"). I am not saying all HRs are like this, but just generally for my experience, there are quite a lot of bad ones out there, unfortunately. I have had one good experience though so far .
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Old 05.05.2011, 16:36
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

Disclaimer - I work in recruitment and most of the HR people I deal with are competent.

I would recommend that you put your nationality down towards the bottom of your CV while having B or C PERMIT in big letters near the top.

Remember that HR people will get swamped with CVs and as you go through 100+ CVs sorting out the non-EU ones you know you can't employ, a detail like "b-permit" in the 37th CV might slip your notice.

HR people are people too. To err is human.
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Old 05.05.2011, 17:01
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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Disclaimer - I work in recruitment and most of the HR people I deal with are competent.

I would recommend that you put your nationality down towards the bottom of your CV while having B or C PERMIT in big letters near the top.

Remember that HR people will get swamped with CVs and as you go through 100+ CVs sorting out the non-EU ones you know you can't employ, a detail like "b-permit" in the 37th CV might slip your notice.

HR people are people too. To err is human.
in addition, if you are over 40 move your age to the bottom as well. Was told to do so by a wise man.
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Old 07.05.2011, 19:41
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Re: Employment of the non-EU

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Personally I would be happier if more countries opened their labour markets to outside labour but then again I am a bit globalist in my views.

Ultimately the swiss have the right to decide who they want to let in. Be grateful there isn't an unemployment problem and that they are willing to allow outsiders to work here, even if hesitantly.
This is true, no one has a God given right to work anywhere. Governments first responsibility is to their citizens.

That being said with my experience, although I got a work visa, I think that Switzerland might improve the system to make industry specific quotas.

Some industries in Switzerland likely are at risk of "labor dumping" from abroad, which is what the quotas are set up to prevent, this is understandable. That being said, blanket quotas on the entire job market makes it harder to get works in industries, like mine - IT-, where there is a shortage on only in Switzerland but the Germany, UK, etc. It is not a benefit to the Swiss economy to make it hard for companies to hire IT people.

This all goes to politics far more than economics. It is just politically incorrect to be seen as a pro-foreign labor politician when the job market is not good and their is a general anti-immigrant wave going through Europe.

I'm from the States, but I think we have a similar system to Switzerland and I don't care for that either. I prefer Canada and Australia's system, a point system based on qualifications. Just get that out of the way up front.

http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm

From what I read, U.S. business is against the Canadian model, because they just want the right to choose anyone they want, not pick from a pre-established pool...I would get 75 points on that model, the cut off is 65, and I'm not "super star" or anything. LOL

not sure how Swiss business would feel, but I know how the SVP would feel. As a recruiter told me a few months ago when I was looking for work, "Do you have any idea how MANY Indians I could get good paying jobs in Switzerland if not for this damned quota nonsense..." That's the SVP's nightmare.

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