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  #161  
Old 19.07.2012, 00:22
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Yes, many swiss are quite rude, in part it is a normal "peasant" way of being. I once asked on the bus a driver for a ticket, I walked from behind, was with my little daughter and her byke. He drove and said as he hit the counter with the open hand: "sit down! it's forbidden talking to the driver!"
In the next stop I went to him and hit the counter just as he had and asked if that was according to the politeness rules of the company, paid, took note of his name. In a quite loud voice! He did not say a word, and turned to a lamb.
The trick (as germans do, unlike the swiss) is to face them keeping control of yourself, be very polite, force them to give you an explanation about their anger and treat them like a tantrum child, for that is in great part what they (mostly not-always-old very conservative and xenophobic people) are.
To correct your statement to show realitiy :

The trick (as Swiss do, unlike the Germans) is to face them keeping control of yourself, be very polite, force them to give you an explanation about their anger and treat them like a tantrum child, for that is in great part what they (mostly not-always-old very conservative and xenophobic people) are.
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  #162  
Old 19.07.2012, 13:18
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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To correct your statement to show realitiy :

The trick (as Swiss do, unlike the Germans) is to face them keeping control of yourself, be very polite, force them to give you an explanation about their anger and treat them like a tantrum child, for that is in great part what they (mostly not-always-old very conservative and xenophobic people) are.
I think that may be true up to a point, as actually swiss germans and germans (specially Schwaben) are in a way not so far culturally, but germans do this in a superior and teasing way that somehow seems to deeply exasperate that kind of swiss (due maybe to a correct use of high german, a sine qua non prerequisite to use this technique), who on the other hand tend to apply that kind of didactic and authoritarian behaviour selectively to the non-swiss.
I agree, I have seen swiss do this (in upper crust dialect) to swiss red-necks bullying some inocent foreigner.
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  #163  
Old 19.07.2012, 14:14
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

Are you implying that Swabians speak perfectly correct high German?
We need to talk...

Most Germans I know, me included, apply a totally different technique: We said "schon gut", go away and do as we please anyway. It might not look like a fight to local Swiss, but it's definitely the highest possible level of aggression.
When I feel French, I say something more sarcastic are far more mean (? meaner) but same applies.
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  #164  
Old 19.07.2012, 16:36
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Are you implying that Swabians speak perfectly correct high German?
Mhh no... actually I meant exactly the contrary
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  #165  
Old 19.07.2012, 22:13
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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I think that may be true up to a point, as actually swiss germans and germans (specially Schwaben) are in a way not so far culturally, but germans do this in a superior and teasing way that somehow seems to deeply exasperate that kind of swiss (due maybe to a correct use of high german, a sine qua non prerequisite to use this technique), who on the other hand tend to apply that kind of didactic and authoritarian behaviour selectively to the non-swiss.
I agree, I have seen swiss do this (in upper crust dialect) to swiss red-necks bullying some inocent foreigner.
I have seen enough Germans and enough Swiss doing the described thing with such moody authoritarian ugly people. You have to see that the Switzerland-Germany border is the result of numerous coincidences and twists of history, but no natural borders divide the neighbours. Not only is the Canton of Schaffhausen north of the Rhein, but a good part of Basel is north of the Rhein as well, and the German City of Konstanz is SOUTH of the Rhein ! You will not win elections on either side of the border pointing to the obvious and that is that the mentalities on both sides of the border are very close. That the mentality of people in southern Baden-Württemberg is closer to the one in Switzerland than to the one in Berlin or Hamburg or Hannover. And that the mentality in Zürich is closer to the one in München and Stuttgart than to the one in Geneva and Lausanne.

And to say that people in southern Baden-Württemberg and in Bavaria speak High German is utter rubbish The famous joke of the Badeners about themselves is their saying "Hochdeutsch ist das Einzige das wir nicht können". And to describe "Bavarian" as Hochdeutsch is rather bizarre
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  #166  
Old 22.07.2012, 03:00
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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That the mentality of people in southern Baden-Württemberg is closer to the one in Switzerland than to the one in Berlin or Hamburg or Hannover. And that the mentality in Zürich is closer to the one in München and Stuttgart than to the one in Geneva and Lausanne.
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I doubt that.

Germany is the result of migration/emigration/immigration of 1850 ahead, with its peak after 1933/45. Also and especially in the south.

Switzerland, too, but quite exclusively in the urban regions. And migration waves from 1933 until now are very different in quality and quantity. So imho there is a cut.


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And to say that people in southern Baden-Württemberg and in Bavaria speak High German is utter rubbish The famous joke of the Badeners about themselves is their saying "Hochdeutsch ist das Einzige das wir nicht können". And to describe "Bavarian" as Hochdeutsch is rather bizarre
I want to see who really speaks Bavarian or Schwäbisch/Badensisch nowadays. Most people are not able anymore, and anyway those southern dialects are far closer to high German than were all northern dialects (most of which have already died decades if not centuries ago).
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  #167  
Old 22.07.2012, 04:41
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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I want to see who really speaks Bavarian or Schwäbisch/Badensisch nowadays. Most people are not able anymore, and anyway those southern dialects are far closer to high German than were all northern dialects (most of which have already died decades if not centuries ago).
What you mean by "northern dialect" is probable the northern language low-German, Nederdüütsch. It not dead, but adults now are the last generation speaking it actively in vast but non-densly inhabited country side. In Nordfriesland, Low-German is even strong enough to put pressure on the Frisian dialects and the Frisian language is really in great danger facing both Low and High German. You still have a theater in Hamburg only playing popular plays in Low-German (Ohnsorg-Theater). It's full every weekend. Reserve a seat in advance.

Nowadays, hard core Schwäbisch, S/N-Badisch and Bavarian is harder to find but they are still very very strong outside cities and carried on in the young generation. In bigger cities, people also have a very strong accent and a clear regional vocab and grammar. What you see is a creolization of historical hard core dialect with High-German. We call in nowadays Regiolects. As a northern German, take my word for it: People in Swabia and Bayern can be hard to understand... not as hard as the Swiss because the dialects are more mixed with school-High-German, but still. Do you say in English "watered down" ? That would be a way of describing the situation in most German regions.
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  #168  
Old 22.07.2012, 17:41
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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I doubt that.
Germany is the result of migration/emigration/immigration of 1850 ahead, with its peak after 1933/45. Also and especially in the south.
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Germany had some heavy migration from East Prussia, Pommern, Schlesien and Sudetenland after 1945, but the migrants were German speakers. For Bavaria and Baden relevant was that much of those immigrants were Protestants. Nice for Schaffhausen and Zürich and Basel.

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Switzerland, too, but quite exclusively in the urban regions. And migration waves from 1933 until now are very different in quality and quantity. So imho there is a cut.
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No, immigration from Italy started in the 1890ies and peaked in between 1905 and 1914 and then again between 1920 and 30 and then most of all between 1950 and 1970. It in per-capita figures was much heavier than in Germany, and affected rural regions quite heavily. In case of the later "immigration-waves" Switzerland was in per-capita figures far more affected than Germany.

<> AND, if you travel around in southern Baden-Württemberg and southern Bavaria you can experience it first hand. You can hear it, you can get it out of what people talk. The regions are closer together than ever. Go there. Speak with people. Read the local papers. Then you can see what I mean.


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I want to see who really speaks Bavarian or Schwäbisch/Badensisch nowadays. Most people are not able anymore, and anyway those southern dialects are far closer to high German than were all northern dialects (most of which have already died decades if not centuries ago).
First of all, those folks in B-W and Bavaria generally are unable to speak Standard-German (Hochdeutsch). This is reality. Second, Standard-German was created in the North of Germany and not in the South. Third, the dialects in the South are miles away from Hochdeutsch.

If you change over from Schaffhausen into Germany on either side you can continue in Schaffuuserisch on the other side of the border as the locals speak similar dialects

************************************************** ***************

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As a northern German, take my word for it: People in Swabia and Bayern can be hard to understand... not as hard as the Swiss because the dialects are more mixed with school-High-German, but still. Do you say in English "watered down" ? That would be a way of describing the situation in most German regions.
You may not realize it but in most areas of German speaking Switzerland, the dialects in the past half-century were heavily mixed with Standard-German and heavily watered down ! More important in fact is that the various dialects mixed. In case of Zürich it is more special in so far as the original Züri-Tüütsch disappeared in the 1950ies/60ies and was replaced by a mix of all the dialects around Zürich.

Just imagine that the Bernese Primary School teacher of Mum, in Schaffhausen also in private life always spoke Standard German, as the Schaffhauser simply did not understand her when she spoke dialect. And never had a problem with this

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  #169  
Old 22.07.2012, 18:05
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Germany had some heavy migration from East Prussia, Pommern, Schlesien and Sudetenland after 1945, but the migrants were German speakers. For Bavaria and Baden relevant was that much of those immigrants were Protestants. Nice for Schaffhausen and Zürich and Basel.
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Don't know if it's nice for SH and ZH and protestant empire yes or no (Anyway Germany, not much unlike CH, is heavily protestant dominated in culture and "elite", which is not always an advantage, e.g. in the actual Euro debate),

but this "inner migration" contributed much towards a downgrade of local dialects also in the countryside.


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... immigration from Italy started in the 1890ies and peaked in between 1905 and 1914 and then again between 1920 and 30 and then most of all between 1950 and 1970.
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That one from Germany to ZH and SG started even before 1850.

However, that immigration waves are not uncommon for the cited decades neither in Germany, only that it wasn't the Italian, but the Polish (from the Prussian part of Poland so no foreigners, but also from the Russian one) first, Italian and Turks after.



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It in per-capita figures was much heavier than in Germany, and affected rural regions quite heavily. In case of the later "immigration-waves" Switzerland was in per-capita figures far more affected than Germany.
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Let's say it depends on where exactly. Only a few foreigners like Uri and Appenzell or the Graubünden or Ticino valleys, e.g., and only a few of them ever had the courage to settle in Germany's new east from 1989. So quite zero immigration in some regions at all for 60 years.


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You can hear it, you can get it out of what people talk. The regions are closer together than ever. Go there. Speak with people. Read the local papers. Then you can see what I mean.
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I don't see what you mean. Of course things are quite close one next to the other, and - yes - there is something like a cultural affinity, of course. But I don't think it is much reflected on a language base. Many people (but not all) have accents, yes, and maybe still understand dialects, but they don't really speak it any more.


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First of all, those folks in B-W and Bavaria generally are unable to speak Standard-German (Hochdeutsch). This is reality.
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No, I don't agree at all. Perpetration of high German is much deeper than you think.


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Third, the dialects in the South are miles away from Hochdeutsch.
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Not true either. It's called "High German" not because the standard version of empirial Germany was considered as to be culturally superior, but because it was a composition of the dialects of linguistic upper Germany (CH included) with all vowel shifts completed (that's why Swiss German is easy to understand for a German, also if most of them fear to talk it). Totally different story for the northern dialects which are closer to Dutch and English, not to German.


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If you change over from Schaffhausen into Germany on either side you can continue in Schaffuuserisch on the other side of the border as the locals speak similar dialects
This is a result of German commuters now and economic interaction in the past. Go away 20 km from the border and things are different. At Freiburg/Breisgau only a few persons speak dialect.
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  #170  
Old 22.07.2012, 18:23
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

We shouldn't mix up two perspectives:
- southern Germans speak perfectly well High German in their regional versions and because they take it seriously in school. For a foreigner, this is perfectly good High German.
- southern Germans have their own regional specialties. For a northern German, this doesn't sound exactly like perfect High German but in a way, it's a judgmental view because nobody ever pretended High German was free from regionalisms.

How far dialects from the south are from High German? Again, two perspectives:
- Technically, they are Oberdeutsch, close to the forms High German is based on. But High German is not pure written 16th century Saxon either, it has taken elements from the southern dialect groups too. The middle-German monophtonging wasn't taken into the norm, the ei,au and eu follow the Bavarian diphotonging of that time and the Pf- were kept intact like in the south although Saxon had transformed them into F-.
- Today, High German taught officially follows not only the historical middle-German norm but also the northern German pronunciation know as Bühnendeutsch, which makes the southern dialects sound different, or even exotic. In the north, one had a total language change Nederdüütsch>Hochdeutsch. In the south, they kept the diglossia because their dialects are technically part of the large Oberdeutsch area, they didn't feel their dialects were a different language. In the north, Plattdüütsch is technically a different language and that's how the people also treated it: Platt in social life and High German for anything official. It was bilingualism, not simple diglossia like in the south, Switzerland included.

On top of that: the mix of population did the rest, in Germany like in Switzerland, just on a larger scale in the big canton.
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  #171  
Old 22.07.2012, 22:05
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Don't know if it's nice for SH and ZH and protestant empire yes or no (Anyway Germany, not much unlike CH, is heavily protestant dominated in culture and "elite", which is not always an advantage, e.g. in the actual Euro debate),
But I DO know ! Protestant Schaffhausen DISliked to be encircled by Catholic Baden, and so on intent hired housemaids and teachers from farther away Württemberg

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but this "inner migration" contributed much towards a downgrade of local dialects also in the countryside.
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just as in Switzerland


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That one from Germany to ZH and SG started even before 1850.

However, that immigration waves are not uncommon for the cited decades neither in Germany, only that it wasn't the Italian, but the Polish (from the Prussian part of Poland so no foreigners, but also from the Russian one) first, Italian and Turks after.
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Sure, there over centuries was an influx to Zürich from Southern Germany. In Switzerland, there were waves of Poles in the 19th Century and of Poles and Czechs n the 1930ies, and of Czechs and Hungarians and Poles in the late 1940ies, when those countries became communist, after 1956 from Hungary and after 1968 from Czechoslovakia. What in Switzerland counted in the 1960ies and 70ies was the influx from Yugoslavia and Portugal and Turkey.



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Let's say it depends on where exactly. Only a few foreigners like Uri and Appenzell or the Graubünden or Ticino valleys, e.g., and only a few of them ever had the courage to settle in Germany's new east from 1989. So quite zero immigration in some regions at all for 60 years.
You now speak about EMIgration from Switzerland to Germany. This was quite heavy until the late 19th Century. If you however speak about IMMIgration from the Med, it can be stated that there was a considerable IMMIgration to Graubünden and Uri, but not as much to Appenzell. The Ticino always was EMIgration land, the IMMigration of Italians took place up from the 1920ies, but had its limits


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I don't see what you mean. Of course things are quite close one next to the other, and - yes - there is something like a cultural affinity, of course. But I don't think it is much reflected on a language base. Many people (but not all) have accents, yes, and maybe still understand dialects, but they don't really speak it any more.
I leave the differentiation between "accent" and "diavlect" to the experts, reality however is that practically everybody in Stuttgart has at least a heavy accent, and what they speak is clearly a dialect.


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No, I don't agree at all. Perpetration of high German is much deeper than you think.
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Penetration of High German in Switzerland most of all is much deeper than YOU think.


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Not true either. It's called "High German" not because the standard version of empirial Germany was considered as to be culturally superior, but because it was a composition of the dialects of linguistic upper Germany (CH included) with all vowel shifts completed (that's why Swiss German is easy to understand for a German, also if most of them fear to talk it). Totally different story for the northern dialects which are closer to Dutch and English, not to German.
Here I may mention Martin Luther, the great German reformator, who by translating the Bible into German was the first to create a kind of Standard German. "easy to understand for a German" ?? Depends on which CH dialect you refer to -- one side, and what are of Germany people come from.

To talk "it" ? I well understand Bayerisch, Kölsch, Wallisserisch, Baaseltiitsch, Tirolerisch (as most Austrian dialects linked to Bayern, with the exception of the Vorarlberg), but generally abstain to try to speak any of them


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This is a result of German commuters now and economic interaction in the past. Go away 20 km from the border and things are different. At Freiburg/Breisgau only a few persons speak dialect.
Sure, in the Markgräflerland, it is still Baaseltiistsch, while it in Freiburg im Breisgau it is comparable to how people speak in Mannhaam, and dialect-wise (German) in Strassburg etc, which means Fränkisch, Süd-Hessisch

I when speaking about these things refer to personal experience and not linguistic sciences.
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  #172  
Old 25.07.2012, 16:08
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

I do not understand Swiss culture but I find it a bit rude. During my marriage party the guests ignored me completely and looked like a get together than a marriage party, whenever they tried to make conversations then the topic was - so when are you eligible for swiss passport, life will be easier that you took your husband last name, so from today we only speak german to you, now you are finally legal!! . Hahaha I guess they think all foreigners are illegal and regugees esp. if they are non-white. I was even told by a guest that I do not talk with you .... you do not speak german ..... should I leave my own party .

Anyways thats life Swiss hospitality is different than in east.....
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  #173  
Old 25.07.2012, 16:09
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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I do not understand Swiss culture but I find it a bit rude.
Correction: I do not understand Swiss culture therefore I find it a bit rude.
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Old 25.07.2012, 16:16
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Correction: I do not understand Swiss culture therefore I find it a bit rude.

You are correct may be . By the way, English is not my mother tongue so is hard for me to explain in grammatically correct way. What I meant to say was I do not completely understand the swiss culture but how much I have experienced till now .... I have found it rude. May be completely normal for here.... cultural misunderstandings .
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Old 25.07.2012, 16:31
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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You are correct may be . By the way, English is not my mother tongue so is hard for me to explain in grammatically correct way.
It's not mine either, by far, and I've been mocked for it here enough to laugh about it.
You never know if people like your wedding guests are using irony to break the ice or are real plain dumb racists. Fact is, you'll have to make your own opinion by communicating with people in their own language, as good as you can. You'll then see that some people are clumsy ice-breakers, others are just a$$h0lës.
Same apply to English speakers here. Same apply to other speakers elsewhere...
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Old 25.07.2012, 16:47
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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You are correct may be . By the way, English is not my mother tongue so is hard for me to explain in grammatically correct way. What I meant to say was I do not completely understand the swiss culture but how much I have experienced till now .... I have found it rude. May be completely normal for here.... cultural misunderstandings .
That might be the problem. There are many Swiss people I know who have an ultra-dry sense of humour, which I actually find hilarious but you need to learn to take it on the chin and deliver it back in the same vein.

I used to work in an office that had an über-sensitive receptionist with whom nobody shared a joke in the end because she got all mardy and took it personally.

If you feel that someone is getting a bit annoying with their comments, just fire something appropriate back but keep a twinkle in your eye so they know you're on the same level as them and you "get" their humour.
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  #177  
Old 26.07.2012, 00:12
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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I do not understand Swiss culture but I find it a bit rude. During my marriage party the guests ignored me completely and looked like a get together than a marriage party, whenever they tried to make conversations then the topic was - so when are you eligible for swiss passport, life will be easier that you took your husband last name, so from today we only speak german to you, now you are finally legal!! . Hahaha I guess they think all foreigners are illegal and regugees esp. if they are non-white. I was even told by a guest that I do not talk with you .... you do not speak german ..... should I leave my own party .

Anyways thats life Swiss hospitality is different than in east.....
While there ARE people like that, they do not represent "Swiss culture" but just themselves. To ignore somebody at such a party simply is bad behaviour. Whomever thinks that all foreigners are illegal is unbelievably stupid. I however simply believe that they wanted to be "humourous" but ended up to be stupid.

Leaves two questions :
A) Who did do the invitations to that party ?
B) Is your husband aware of the fact that he in future ought to avoid the company of some specific people ?

I however do not quite see what the bad behaviours of some idiots has to do with "Swiss Hospitality". and just wonder whether there are no such idiots in "east...." ?
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  #178  
Old 26.07.2012, 00:24
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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You are correct may be . By the way, English is not my mother tongue so is hard for me to explain in grammatically correct way. What I meant to say was I do not completely understand the swiss culture but how much I have experienced till now .... I have found it rude. May be completely normal for here.... cultural misunderstandings .
Just had a look at your profile. You do not mention nationality or anything. So that you on "English Forum" simply are regarded as an English Expat

Reminds me of a woman who worked in the Cargo Office of Dan-Air in Zürich. She was obviously of Greek origin, and we all regarded her as arrogant and rude. I then met her in person and was surprised to meet a very charming young women. Her "rudeness/arrogance" was just her way of speaking German ! -----
---- Have you ever tried to find out how YOU "look" and "sound" for others all around you
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  #179  
Old 26.07.2012, 09:11
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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Just had a look at your profile. You do not mention nationality or anything. So that you on "English Forum" simply are regarded as an English Expat
I am confused about my nationality , I have been asked if I am:
- Tibetean refugee
- Thai girl (with a older swiss husband, they are always shocked when they finds out that my husband is same age)
- A latin prostitute (I was walking home alone late night after beer-evening with some colleagues, and on the way to my home there is a latin dance bar,and the guys drinking on the road blocked my path and asked if I was going to work . I was dressed on jeans and plain shirt ... no high heels and skimpy dress...normally I would have run away and cry at home but the beer effect made me reply "dumb assholes should I call police for harassment" then they said sorry sorry and ran away.).

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J
---- Have you ever tried to find out how YOU "look" and "sound" for others all around you
I do not know what other thinks but my husband says "you are too soft and modest, try to be arrogant and asshole ... may be they do not like you but they will show more respect in the front".
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  #180  
Old 26.07.2012, 09:39
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Re: So, is sometimes the "Swiss way" kind of rude?

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...- Thai girl (with a older swiss husband, they are always shocked when they finds out that my husband is same age)..
My wife gets that - even from Thais (she isn't Thai, even ethnically. She is British). Except they're shocked when they discover I'm younger than her.
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